[JRG]

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W - N - E - S
1♦ - 1♠ - Pass - Pass
2♦ - Pass - ?

This hand came up in the BIL (I suggested someone post it - just in case they don't, here it is!!!).

So here are some questions (I have my opinions, which I gave at the table), but I thought it might be an interesting hand for discussion. Playing SAYC or 2/1 (the reason for scoring being "unknown" is that it was a teaching table and I didn't suggest any method of scoring).

1) Would you pass as East when North overcalled 1♠? Some of the kibitzers questioned the pass (I suggested it was the best call).

2) Would you bid 2♦ as West? If not, what would your call be?

3) Assuming the auction went as shown, what would you bid as East? I'm particularly interested in discussion of the following options (as this is what I discussed at the table -- don't forget, this is the BIL). By the way, I suggested that any "forcing" bid by East must show ♠s as that is the only reasonable explanation of having passed. Also, that it must deny a biddable heart suit (because of the lack of a Negative Double or an immediate ♥ response).

2♠ - cue-bid: either ♦ support or any strong hand within the above constraints.
3♥ - splinter: support of ♦s
4♥ - same as above (So why bid 4♥ if it means the same thing? Should 4♥ show a void?)
5♦ - Damn, we don't play splinters, not sure what partner thinks 2♠ would mean, I want to be in game.

Actually, any interesting comments about the hand would be great. For what it is worth, this is the first hand I've ever posted to the Forums!

[Free]

Congrats with your post!

1) YES, certainly. When we are all V, we can collect an 'easy' 800 imo.

2) I think Dbl is the best bid: we have 4 ♥s, a short suit, and short ♠. If p bids 2♣ then you can still rebid 2♦.

3) I think the best bid is 3♥: splinter (exactly singleton) and ♦ support, slam try AND good ♠ (otherwise you shouldn't pass). 4♥ should indeed show a void the way I play it.
Opener should now start showing controls. My further bidding would be:

1D - 1S - P - P
2D - P - 3H - P
3S - P - 4D - P
5C - P - 6D

With 4♦ minorwood...

[the hog]

1) Would you pass as East when North overcalled 1♠? Some of the kibitzers questioned the pass (I suggested it was the best call).

2) Would you bid 2♦ as West? If not, what would your call be?

3) Assuming the auction went as shown, what would you bid as East? I'm particularly interested in discussion of the following options (as this is what I discussed at the table -- don't forget, this is the BIL). By the way, I suggested that any "forcing" bid by East must show ♠s as that is the only reasonable explanation of having passed. Also, that it must deny a biddable heart suit (because of the lack of a Negative Double or an immediate ♥ response).

2♠ - cue-bid: either ♦ support or any strong hand within the above constraints.
3♥ - splinter: support of ♦s
4♥ - same as above (So why bid 4♥ if it means the same thing? Should 4♥ show a void?)

5♦ - Damn, we don't play splinters, not sure what partner thinks 2♠ would mean, I want to be in game.

Hi John, good hand to post.

1) No, I would definitely not pass 1S. AJT9 is not a 1 level pass in my book. There are too many hands I have seen where 1S X makes.

2) Yes, I would bid 2D. This unbalanced and top heavy D hand is totally unsuited to a X.

3) This is somewhat of an academic question for me, as the auction would not have gone as shown, however if it had....
I would bid 3H here. The problem with this bid is that this is now a very muddy and unusual sequence. I guess pd would read this as a splinter, but I have no great confidence in our ability to reach 6 now. My Ds are poor, and on the given hand, pd's S K is unexpected. A S lead may very easily set up a s trick for the ops with another loser to come.

[JRG]

The_Hog's response is, as usual, well reasoned.

I didn't get into the problem of what to do when partner reopens with a double. I agree that passing the double at the one-level is a gamble -- it might go down enough, or it might make. I also would be uncomfortable turning a reopening double into a penalty double.

I also tell people that if the opponents never make a doubled contract, you are not doubling enough!

So, what would you have bid (instead of passing)? I'm curious, I don't think this is an easy hand to bid.

[the hog]

"So, what would you have bid (instead of passing)? I'm curious, I don't think this is an easy hand to bid. "

Playing sayc or 2/1 I agree with that statement. In my case, where a 1D opening shows specifically 5+D, (or 4 if exactly 4441), we have it a lot easier. I would bid 3H here which we play as a splinter over interference. (2H would be nf, and a X followed by H is forcing ). Opener's 4D is now minorwood, and a good bet as the hands look to fit well.

Playing sayc or 2/1
1D (1S) 2S (P)
3D (P) ??

A few possibilities:
3N - could work, I definitely have a S stopper, but I am worried about the H suit

3S - what does this do? On the given hand quite a lot, but can I seriously expect pd to have a stopper? I think not, then what anyway?

4D - yes, should be forcing. Would bid this in a non regular partnership. Now what?
4S by opener as 1st or 2nd round cue, followed by 5C & 6D is a possibility

3H - not with a pu pd who might think this was natural.

4H - NOT with a pickup partner who might pass.

A very instructive hand, particularly in BIL.

Cheers
Ron

[inquiry]

Quote

1) Would you pass as East when North overcalled 1♠? Some of the kibitzers questioned the pass (I suggested it was the best call).

No, I would not pass 1♠. While it is true that pass is "safe" because I fully expect partner to balance back in, I have found it is never a good idea to pass with good support for your partner. Here you have 3 quick tricks, 15 hcp, and a good fit for partner. Someone has a bunch of ♥, the most we expect for partner at most four, he could have less.

So I would bid. I have the values for a four level fit jump, but that bypasses 3NT. So I will make a forcing 3♣ fit jump if that is available as an option. I plan to bid more over 3♦, and if partner shows extra values by not bidding 3♦, we are going places.

In a beginner class, where fit jumps are not discussed.. i would instead bid a tame 2♣ if that is forcing in my method, and if not, then 2♠ as a third alternative.

Quote

2) Would you bid 2♦ as West? If not, what would your call be?

Since I can stand a penalty pass because of my two spades, I would reopen dbl. If partner bids ♣ I retreat to ♦s. I play this does not show extra values....

Quote

3) Assuming the auction went as shown, what would you bid as East? I'm particularly interested in discussion of the following options (as this is what I discussed at the table -- don't forget, this is the BIL). By the way, I suggested that any "forcing" bid by East must show ♠s as that is the only reasonable explanation of having passed. Also, that it must deny a biddable heart suit (because of the lack of a Negative Double or an immediate ♥ response).

2♠ - cue-bid: either ♦ support or any strong hand within the above constraints.
3♥ - splinter: support of ♦s
4♥ - same as above (So why bid 4♥ if it means the same thing? Should 4♥ show a void?)
5♦ - Damn, we don't play splinters, not sure what partner thinks 2♠ would mean, I want to be in game.

Ok..

2♠ is good hand, but see my personal rule about supporting with support. Once partner shows a good hand with a 2♠ bid, he will have hard time to make believe he has my first suit...

3♥ - splinter. Well, since again, I can't have a hand with support here, 3♥ would not be splinter for me. But 3♥ has to show spades values or partner could have bid earlierr, so I would take 3♥ maybe as ♥ stopper and lookng for 3NT with good hand with some heart values and good spades.

4♥ is unexpected..I guess 9 hearts and tried to walk the dog up to 4♥ with intial pass, and now has wet feet and leaps to the game.

5♦ - not possible, partner supports with support earlier.

Now these views may not be popular but you asted for different ideas. My idea, not at all origianal, is support with support. I would be raising diamonds somehow anytime i had them.... so there is an inference from my lack of fist round raise that affects the remainder of the auctions.

Ben

[the hog]

fwiw, I think the fsj to 4C is an excellent bid, provided that we KNOW that opener has a real D suit.

[inquiry]

The_Hog, on Apr 1 2004, 03:28 AM, said:

fwiw, I think the fsj to 4C is an excellent bid, provided that we KNOW that opener has a real D suit.

We will have to agree to disagree here on this. Here are the problems i have with FJS to 4♣ even if I knew partner had real ♦'s.

1) He will play me for 5♦ if I force to the four level, and probably 5♣.
2) With my ♠ holding 3NT maybe the right place.
3) A 3♣ fit jump will get a minimum/max response out of partner so I will know how to continue (assuming he is not allowed to pass 3♣).
4) a 3♣ fit jump is low enough it might goad your LHO to show something at the three level, like a mild ♠ fit... yummy....

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

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Hi John!

Spoiler

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Really long time ago I used to play trap pass unlimited. I several times leave opps with 1(0!) tricks without double, because my p had also 4♠ and passed "hunting" opps in vul. I personally also had in BBO several similar contracts, one at 3th level without dbl for ... 4 tricks with opps mistake in defense.
Shortly: dbl, new suit(forcing by my method), bid in ♠ GF(natural by my method, but previous suit longer)...

1. DBL
2. DBL - If p pass I can't lose with ♠Kx and perfect ♦ to lead in.
3. Any bid by passed hand responder is below GF. So any bids are nat, include 2♠(6+♠, not inv) 3♥(5+♠-5+♥,inv) at highest levels are just more distributional but all time with ♠ suit included.

Spoiler

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Misho

[luis]

Quote

1) Would you pass as East when North overcalled 1♠? Some of the kibitzers questioned the pass (I suggested it was the best call).

No, I wouldn't pass 1s since my hand doesn't look as a penalty pass of 1s.

2) Would you bid 2♦ as West? If not, what would your call be?

Yes, automatic.

3) Assuming the auction went as shown, what would you bid as East? I'm particularly interested in discussion of the following options (as this is what I discussed at the table -- don't forget, this is the BIL). By the way, I suggested that any "forcing" bid by East must show ♠s as that is the only reasonable explanation of having passed. Also, that it must deny a biddable heart suit (because of the lack of a Negative Double or an immediate ♥ response).

I think I must bid 2s showing a penalty pass of 1s and a game-forcing hand. It's the most flexible bid.
I don't think a splinter or a fit-showing jump are adequate since the auction is not competitive because they don't have a fit.