Help
1D 1S
2C 2D
2H 2S
1D= 2+ diamonds, 10-15 HCP.
2C= Can be 5-5, 4-5, 5-4, 1444, or 1435.
2H= Any hand that is 1435!
First, do you think this is a good treatment? It is also in context of a system where partner cannot bid 1S with 5S and 4 or 5 hearts unless his hand is worth a GF, or he is 6-4.
Second, assuming you play this treatment what is 2S?
Page 1 of 1
What should this bid mean?
#2
- Under bidder
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 11,797
- Joined: 2004-July-25
- Gender:Male
- Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Posted 2008-July-30, 00:32
I don't like this treatment so much when playing reverse flannery. When not playing RF I like it a lot more. I would prefer to rebid 1NT regardless but I guess you don't want to do that because you are not often raising with 3-card support?
I think 2S would be bid on a 5242 with 5 decent spades. It could be a gametry with club support but I think natural still makes sense so natural it is.
I think 2S would be bid on a 5242 with 5 decent spades. It could be a gametry with club support but I think natural still makes sense so natural it is.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#3
- Brain Farts and Actual Farts Increasing with Age
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,586
- Joined: 2005-September-21
- Gender:Male
- Location:Lima, Allen County, North-West-Central Ohio, USA
- Interests:www.limadbc.blogspot.com editor/contributor
Posted 2008-July-30, 06:42
Workable.
This question about 2♠, though. By whom, and when?
Responder, after the 1435 call?
Responder, instead of the 2♦ call?
Or, Opener, instead of the 2♥ call?
This question about 2♠, though. By whom, and when?
Responder, after the 1435 call?
Responder, instead of the 2♦ call?
Or, Opener, instead of the 2♥ call?
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
-P.J. Painter.
-P.J. Painter.
#4 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-July-30, 06:44
kenrexford, on Jul 30 2008, 07:42 AM, said:
Workable.
This question about 2♠, though. By whom, and when?
Responder, after the 1435 call?
Responder, instead of the 2♦ call?
Or, Opener, instead of the 2♥ call?
This question about 2♠, though. By whom, and when?
Responder, after the 1435 call?
Responder, instead of the 2♦ call?
Or, Opener, instead of the 2♥ call?
?? 2S in the auction I posted
#5
- Brain Farts and Actual Farts Increasing with Age
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,586
- Joined: 2005-September-21
- Gender:Male
- Location:Lima, Allen County, North-West-Central Ohio, USA
- Interests:www.limadbc.blogspot.com editor/contributor
Posted 2008-July-30, 07:02
Oh. Duh!
General power bid, without any specific known focus. Kind of a PUNT call.
As Opener, I would bid 2NT with a weak hand for my now-known range and something intelligent above 2NT with a maximum, probably bidding to the maximum level of my fit paradox style. Thus, if I have a max but dislike my hand for club contracts, I bid 3♣. If I like my hand for club contracts but dislike it for diamond contracts, 3♦. If I like each minor possibility but dislike heart contracts, 3♥. If I have a general good feeling about life, I'll indicate whether my stiff in spades in one of the top three honors by bidding 3♠ with that or 3NT without that.
General power bid, without any specific known focus. Kind of a PUNT call.
As Opener, I would bid 2NT with a weak hand for my now-known range and something intelligent above 2NT with a maximum, probably bidding to the maximum level of my fit paradox style. Thus, if I have a max but dislike my hand for club contracts, I bid 3♣. If I like my hand for club contracts but dislike it for diamond contracts, 3♦. If I like each minor possibility but dislike heart contracts, 3♥. If I have a general good feeling about life, I'll indicate whether my stiff in spades in one of the top three honors by bidding 3♠ with that or 3NT without that.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
-P.J. Painter.
-P.J. Painter.
#6
- Limit bidder
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 8,482
- Joined: 2004-November-02
- Gender:Female
- Location:England
- Interests:Bridge, classical music, skiing... but I spend more time earning a living than doing any of those
Posted 2008-July-30, 07:07
I'm confused by the system.
What has responder shown by his 2D bid? Is that anything more than a minimum response that is selectin a 2D contract opposite those hand types?
I suppose I'm wondering why opener bids 2H when opener has 10-15, responder has not promised more than e.g. 6, the hand smells of a misfit and it is known there is almost certainly not a 4-4 heart fit?
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here... Ken & han think that responder is making a game try with 2S but I can't work out why we even have the majority of the HCP
What has responder shown by his 2D bid? Is that anything more than a minimum response that is selectin a 2D contract opposite those hand types?
I suppose I'm wondering why opener bids 2H when opener has 10-15, responder has not promised more than e.g. 6, the hand smells of a misfit and it is known there is almost certainly not a 4-4 heart fit?
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here... Ken & han think that responder is making a game try with 2S but I can't work out why we even have the majority of the HCP
#7
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 385
- Joined: 2007-November-20
Posted 2008-July-30, 08:48
Here is the only logic, I can draw:
1D-1S (Spades)
2C-2D (I have 3 Diamonds for you)
2H (I have a max, but am 1-4-3-5)-2S (Well, I have 6 spades, hopefully we have found a home)
1D-1S (Spades)
2C-2D (I have 3 Diamonds for you)
2H (I have a max, but am 1-4-3-5)-2S (Well, I have 6 spades, hopefully we have found a home)
#8
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,151
- Joined: 2003-June-11
- Location:Southern California
Posted 2008-July-30, 09:06
Its a Bluhmer since opener is just patterning with a max, and responder is saying he's a max with no spade wastage.
I don't see why Opener needs to be exactly 1345 and I think Opener should clarify minors over 2♠:
2N = 1345
3♣ = 0355
3♦ = 1354
3♥ = 1444
3♠ = 0445 (I think you left this one off)
You can futz around with these.
Typical 2♠ call would 3 covers - xxxxx Qxx Axx Kx
I don't see why Opener needs to be exactly 1345 and I think Opener should clarify minors over 2♠:
2N = 1345
3♣ = 0355
3♦ = 1354
3♥ = 1444
3♠ = 0445 (I think you left this one off)
You can futz around with these.
Typical 2♠ call would 3 covers - xxxxx Qxx Axx Kx
"Phil" on BBO
#9
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 13,663
- Joined: 2005-June-15
- Gender:Male
- Location:Canada
- Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.
Posted 2008-July-30, 09:57
I don't like the methods, but I also don't think that we should assume that opener has any hand other than what Justin specified: he did NOT specify extras and he did specify 1=4=3=5, so we are stuck with that even if we think that the method is silly.
So I am with Frances in that I can't see why or how responder can be making a game try. Seems to me that he is 6=3 or maybe 6=4 in spades and diamonds and lacks 3 hearts, so he is scrambling to find the cheapest contract in which he is not violating Burn's Law of Total Trumps. If he is 6=3, then he has bad spades. And he has, in all cases, a weak hand with zero game interest (he cannot have game interest and bid 2♦, so how on earth can he suddenly hold game interest? The Bluhmer doesn't work.. how can he be looking for 5♦ when all he could do was 2♦, and if he likes hearts, he can show this unambiguously via 3♥.
So I am with Frances in that I can't see why or how responder can be making a game try. Seems to me that he is 6=3 or maybe 6=4 in spades and diamonds and lacks 3 hearts, so he is scrambling to find the cheapest contract in which he is not violating Burn's Law of Total Trumps. If he is 6=3, then he has bad spades. And he has, in all cases, a weak hand with zero game interest (he cannot have game interest and bid 2♦, so how on earth can he suddenly hold game interest? The Bluhmer doesn't work.. how can he be looking for 5♦ when all he could do was 2♦, and if he likes hearts, he can show this unambiguously via 3♥.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#10
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 3,937
- Joined: 2004-June-05
Posted 2008-July-30, 10:31
Well, if I was playing this, an immediate 2♠ over 1♦ would have been 6+ spades no game interest, so this must be 6+ spades with some game interest, although he's probably a lot less interested now!
So for you, what would 2♠ over 1♦ show?
So for you, what would 2♠ over 1♦ show?
#11
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 3,162
- Joined: 2006-July-10
- Gender:Male
- Location:Maryland
Posted 2008-July-30, 13:30
If you're playing reverse flannery then opener can rebid 1NT with 1435 without worrying about missing a heart fit. You can also reach 2♦ when it is right if youre playing good methods over 1♦-1♠-1NT.
Who cares if you miss a club fit. If your clubs are that good, you could always open 2♣
Who cares if you miss a club fit. If your clubs are that good, you could always open 2♣
#12 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-July-30, 16:43
Frances: You are right, they may easily have more HCP than us, and we also may have no fit.
Phil: Think you misread my OP, 2H shows exactly 1435 with three diamonds.
Ken: 2H didn't show extras, so I'm not sure how your scheme can work? Partner is just trying to scramble not trying to get to game.
Noble: Rebidding 1N with the 1435 shape was my reaction. The Meckwell style is to rebid 1N with all balanced hands that have 3 spades, not to ever rebid 1N with a stiff spade, and then correct 1N to 2S with 5 very freely and jump to 4S with 6 freely. This is a new style for me, but it has some plus sides. Opening 2C is not an option since it shows 6+ clubs.
All: Why do we play this stupid bid? Because we don't like 3-3 fits, and think we rate to get to a better partial by bidding 2H and playing it as showing exactly this hand than passing 2D. I am not totally convinced by this, but this is what Meckwell say you should do. Any thoughts on whether you rate to do better passing 2D than bidding 2H with this hand type?
My partner bid 2S with Axxxx Qx Jxx Axx as a game try. I took it as some kind of cuebid and bid 2N, and he bid 3C which I passed. Han has convinced me this should be a natural 2S I think.
Phil: Think you misread my OP, 2H shows exactly 1435 with three diamonds.
Ken: 2H didn't show extras, so I'm not sure how your scheme can work? Partner is just trying to scramble not trying to get to game.
Noble: Rebidding 1N with the 1435 shape was my reaction. The Meckwell style is to rebid 1N with all balanced hands that have 3 spades, not to ever rebid 1N with a stiff spade, and then correct 1N to 2S with 5 very freely and jump to 4S with 6 freely. This is a new style for me, but it has some plus sides. Opening 2C is not an option since it shows 6+ clubs.
All: Why do we play this stupid bid? Because we don't like 3-3 fits, and think we rate to get to a better partial by bidding 2H and playing it as showing exactly this hand than passing 2D. I am not totally convinced by this, but this is what Meckwell say you should do. Any thoughts on whether you rate to do better passing 2D than bidding 2H with this hand type?
My partner bid 2S with Axxxx Qx Jxx Axx as a game try. I took it as some kind of cuebid and bid 2N, and he bid 3C which I passed. Han has convinced me this should be a natural 2S I think.
#13
- Under bidder
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 11,797
- Joined: 2004-July-25
- Gender:Male
- Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Posted 2008-July-30, 16:47
FrancesHinden, on Jul 30 2008, 08:07 AM, said:
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here... Ken & han think that responder is making a game try with 2S but I can't work out why we even have the majority of the HCP
No I said it is natural.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#14
- Under bidder
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 11,797
- Joined: 2004-July-25
- Gender:Male
- Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Posted 2008-July-30, 16:50
The hand I gave to Justin yesterday was something like KJ109x xx Qxxx xx. Mikeh's 6-3 and 6-4 hands are also possible but with some of those responder would bid 2S immediately.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#15
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,151
- Joined: 2003-June-11
- Location:Southern California
Posted 2008-July-30, 16:53
Jlall, on Jul 30 2008, 02:43 PM, said:
Phil: Think you misread my OP, 2H shows exactly 1435 with three diamonds.
No I read it but I couldn't believe it
"Phil" on BBO
#16
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,030
- Joined: 2008-August-08
- Interests:Attorney, writer, entertainer.<br><br>Great close-up magicians we have known: Shoot Ogawa, Whit Haydn, Bill Malone, David Williamson, Dai Vernon, Michael Skinner, Jay Sankey, Brian Gillis, Eddie Fechter, Simon Lovell, Carl Andrews.
Posted 2008-August-08, 19:16
pclayton, on Jul 30 2008, 05:53 PM, said:
Jlall, on Jul 30 2008, 02:43 PM, said:
Phil: Think you misread my OP, 2H shows exactly 1435 with three diamonds.
No I read it but I couldn't believe it
LOL
1. LSAT tutor for rent.
Call me Desdinova...Eternal Light
C. It's the nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms.
IV: ace 333: pot should be game, idk
e: "Maybe God remembered how cute you were as a carrot."
Call me Desdinova...Eternal Light
C. It's the nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms.
IV: ace 333: pot should be game, idk
e: "Maybe God remembered how cute you were as a carrot."
Page 1 of 1