[Echognome]

Scoring: MP

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1) As dealer, playing a 15-17 1NT, do you open 1NT or 1m?

2) If you open 1NT and partner bids stayman, do you show your 4-card spade suit?

[matmat]

ok.
1NT shows 15-17 balanced?
I do hate my spots, but 1NT it is

yes
i show my 4 card major. There is no reason to think p is balanced too...

[mikeh]

yes, downgrading rarely seems to work for me, and at least none of my values are, for example, QJ tight or KQ tight.. holdings on which I may downgrade.

As for responding to stayman.. yes... the fact that we are balanced doesn't prevent partner from being unbalanced and maybe we can persuade the opps not to lead spades.

[gnasher]

1NT, and yes. This is still a 15-count, and that is still a 4-card spade suit.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 1NT
#2 2S

with kind regards
Marlowe

[peachy]

1) 1NT.
Downgrading with so many aces and kings does not look right. Besides, I cannot possibly consider this hand suit oriented (requiring a 1m opening) - 4333 with a bad 4-card suit.
2) 2S.
Somehow I think this will be close to unanimous. He asks "do you have a 4-card major" - I have one - the answer is Yes. The flat shape will not surprise partner, he heard me open 1NT.

[kfay]

I think if you're not bidding 1NT...2♠ you're thinking way too hard.

[matmat]

kfay, on Jul 19 2008, 07:02 PM, said:

I think if you're not bidding 1NT...2♠ you're thinking way too hard.

remember, it's what gnomes do!

[NickRW]

Well, FWIW, I play a weak NT, but turn my nose up at some poor 12s at the bottom end and include some poorer looking 15s at the top end. This would be one that I would open as a weak NT playing with my regular partners. So... if I were playing a strong NT, then I guess I'd have to say this one is too weak for my taste.

But whatever range you play, if you think this hand fits it, then partner asks for a major, yes I'd reply that I have spades.

Nick

[skjaeran]

I'd never consider downgrading this. I've got 15 hcp and good honour combinations. Of course I'm 4333 and have no interiors, but it's still an obvious 15-17 NT to me.

When partner asks for a 4cM, I'll let him know, even if it's four spotcards in a 4333 hand. Let partner evaluate his hand and fit.

[the hog]

Echognome, on Jul 20 2008, 01:28 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

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1) As dealer, playing a 15-17 1NT, do you open 1NT or 1m?

2) If you open 1NT and partner bids stayman, do you show your 4-card spade suit?

I fail to understand this problem. You have a flat 15 count and you play a 15-17 NT. Can you give me a sane reason why you do niot adhere to your system.
Secondly, having opened 1NT of course I answer 2S to partner's Stayman enquirey. Why on earth would I try to second guess my partner?

[wank]

i see everyone saying how they never downgrade, but i'm sure they would be nodding sagely when talking about upgrading some juicy 14 count. does everyone have an in-built penchant for over-bidding? just because your nt range is enunciated as 15-17 doesn't preclude you from using judgement. if i used my judgement i'd say this was below maximum for a weak nt and so open it a club. as for it being nt orientated, true, but if we play the hand, i'm very likely to have the opportunity to get no-trumps in as a rebid.

[hrothgar]

Hi Matt

Unlike the majority of the posters, I believe that a case can be made for a 1m opening. I'm not sure whether I'd have the balls to do this at the table, but here is my thought process.

1. The hand certainly contains 15 HCPs, however, there are no supporting 10s, nines, and the like. This isn't the typical quacky garbage that makes one consider downgrading. However, this is still a bad 15 count.

2. The shape of the hand is a sterile 4=3=3=3. You can't get much worse.

I understand that some (very good) players are quite happy to use judgment when they are considering upgrading hands but are almost walrus like when considering a downgrade. Personally, I don't agree with this philosophy.

3. This hand has a very weak spade suit. This is (quite possibly) a hand that will play better in 3N than 4M even if a Spade fit is discovered.

There are very real dangers in opening 1m. You could easily miss game if the auction starts 1m - 1N and responder is as the top of his range. I also think that the auction

1N - 2♣
2♠ - 3N

could work well for our side.

Balanced against this, if the auction starts

1m - 1M I think that things will work out quite well for us...

[MickyB]

wank, on Jul 20 2008, 01:57 PM, said:

i see everyone saying how they never downgrade, but i'm sure they would be nodding sagely when talking about upgrading some juicy 14 count. does everyone have an in-built penchant for over-bidding? just because your nt range is enunciated as 15-17 doesn't preclude you from using judgement. if i used my judgement i'd say this was below maximum for a weak nt and so open it a club. as for it being nt orientated, true, but if we play the hand, i'm very likely to have the opportunity to get no-trumps in as a rebid.

Yup, I used to think it was ridiculous how many people upgrade all the time and never downgrade. I once had a selector ask if I'd miscounted my points when I failed to open a weak no-trump on a terrible 12 count, and pointed out that I'd made it easier for the opponents to get to game. Guess I better start opening 0-counts then, the opponents are even more likely to have game on then!

However, a decent 14-17 NT actually makes sense. It means that a passed hand opposite a balanced hand too weak to open 1NT needn't consider bidding game unless a fit is found, which makes life a fair bit easier. Of course, I doubt many of the upgraders are aware of that reason - I think they just like overbidding!

[TimG]

hrothgar, on Jul 20 2008, 08:08 AM, said:

1m - 1M I think that things will work out quite well for us...

When you rebid 1N?

[kfay]

To me, downgrading does NOT make much sense.

When I upgrade, I upgrade 14 counts that look like 15 counts. If I were to downgrade I'm making 15s into 14s... but then undoubtedly these 14s look even more like 15s than those I upgrade with pleasure because, guess what, they ARE 15s. So upgrade it again.

Especially in a MP field why should I take some highly highly highly anti-field action?

[gnasher]

I downgrade 15-counts occasionally, but not this one. Although all the honours are in the three-card suits, they combine well. I'd be more likely to downgrade something like Qxxx AKx Jxxx KQ.

[TimG]

hrothgar, on Jul 20 2008, 08:08 AM, said:

You could easily miss game if the auction starts 1m - 1N and responder is as the top of his range.

For what it's worth, I ran a double dummy simulation, giving declarer the 15 HCP hand and responder a 4432, 4333 or 5332 10-count with no four- or five-card major and at most 4 clubs. Over a 10,000 hand sample, 3NT made 4,187 times. Keep in mind that double-dummy results tend to favor the defense -- that is, at the table, one would expect declarer to make 3NT more than 42% of the time (especially on an unrevealing 1N-3N auction).

[andy_h]

1NT, 2S, wtp. partner could have SKQJx fwiw, so why be undisciplined

[NickRW]

For those of you who think I was recommending downgrading this, playing with you, the way you all count points, I probably wouldn't downgrade it. It is in the poorer half of 15 counts, but not really bad. My weak NT is more in the character of 12.5 to 14.5 so I'd just include this one in it playing with my regular partners, but playing "normal", regular 15-17 - yeah I guess this is a 1N opener.

Nick