[FrancesHinden]

After 2H... 2S I would bid 3D, showing a 5431 forcing hand.

I don't see why gnasher thinks 3D is non-forcing, if I had an invitational hand with diamonds I'd have raised diamonds last round (can still get back to hearts if partner bids them).

It seems unplayable to have to bid 2H, then 3C FSF when I have a forcing diamond raise. Never mind this hand, what if I've got something like

AQxxx
AKx
Kxx
xx

over 2D I have to come up with some forcing bid, so I bid 2H.
Partner gives preference to spades, and now if I still can't bid diamonds natural and forcing I'm truly stuck.

[RichMor]

To the first question, I would rebid 2 ♥ over 2♦.

When pard rebids 2♠, I think that denies a good 2♦ rebid with 3 Spades and denies 4 Hearts as well.

To the second question - what next ? - I would rebid 3♦ which is forcing(I hope).

Over 3♦, pard can rebid 3♥ or 3♠ with 3-card support or rebid 3NT with some kind of Club stopper.

Hope pard sees it all the same way.

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 17 2008, 05:53 PM, said:

I don't see why gnasher thinks 3D is non-forcing, if I had an invitational hand with diamonds I'd have raised diamonds last round (can still get back to hearts if partner bids them).

What's this? The queen of limit bids plays a simple return preference as forcing?

I want to reach:

• 4♥ with a 5431 invitation opposite a 2452 13-count
  
  
• 3♦ with a 5233 invitation opposite a 2452 13-count
  
  
• 3♦ with a 5431 invitation opposite a 2263 10-count

I don't much like the idea of raising to 3♦ directly with the 5431 invitation. Maybe I should accept having to play in 2♠ instead of 3♦ with this shape.

Quote

AQxxx
AKx
Kxx
xx

With this hand I'd bid a slow 2♥ followed by a prompt 3♣.

[kenrexford]

skaeran, on Jul 17 2008, 11:37 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Jul 17 2008, 01:55 PM, said:

skaeran, on Jul 16 2008, 10:45 PM, said:

The difference is that I've got a nice fit for partners suit here.
And I can't bid 1♠....3♥ and then rebid 4♦ over partners 3NT, that would show a stronger hand than this.

Not meaning to pick an argument, but what about 5♦ if partner actually bids 3NT?

No, I'd like partner to be able to suggest 4♥ with a threebagger as well!

Oh, because 3♥ does not promise five of each, then?

[kenrexford]

bid_em_up, on Jul 17 2008, 09:23 AM, said:

For those bidding 3♥, partner will bid 3♠.

Now what?

Well, it depends on what 3♠ means.

As my 3♥ showed 5-5 pattern (at a minimum) and GF values, I'll assume that 3♠ could either be used to show no 3-card major fit but uncertainty (3NT Last Train) or a true spade fit. This seems somewhat critical to the "Now what?" question.

If partner's 3♠ does not establish a fit, but is a 3NT-LT bid, then he would have bid either 4♠ (minimal) or 4♦ (spade flag, extras) with three-card support. Thus, in this auction, I will know whether partner does or does not have a three-card fit, but I don't know in this auction whether he does or does not have a fit because I do not know what you mean by 3♠.

[bid_em_up]

kenrexford, on Jul 17 2008, 02:59 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jul 17 2008, 09:23 AM, said:

For those bidding 3♥, partner will bid 3♠.

Now what?

Well, it depends on what 3♠ means.

As my 3♥ showed 5-5 pattern (at a minimum) and GF values, I'll assume that 3♠ could either be used to show no 3-card major fit but uncertainty (3NT Last Train) or a true spade fit. This seems somewhat critical to the "Now what?" question.

If partner's 3♠ does not establish a fit, but is a 3NT-LT bid, then he would have bid either 4♠ (minimal) or 4♦ (spade flag, extras) with three-card support. Thus, in this auction, I will know whether partner does or does not have a three-card fit, but I don't know in this auction whether he does or does not have a fit because I do not know what you mean by 3♠.

Given that your 3H showed 5-5, you can assume that 3S shows 3 card spade support.

[bid_em_up]

The real crux of this problem comes down to:

Is this hand G/F or Invitational?

If it is only invitational, how are you going to show 5-5 with diamond support and still be able to stop below game?

and when partner holds:

---

how do you stop in 3S? Or do you just chalk this up as a fluke?

Everybody who is bidding 4S or 5D will be going minus on the hand as there are two spade losers and two diamond losers (KJ9 over the Q, stiff 10 in other hand).

[skjaeran]

kenrexford, on Jul 17 2008, 09:55 PM, said:

skaeran, on Jul 17 2008, 11:37 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Jul 17 2008, 01:55 PM, said:

skaeran, on Jul 16 2008, 10:45 PM, said:

The difference is that I've got a nice fit for partners suit here.
And I can't bid 1♠....3♥ and then rebid 4♦ over partners 3NT, that would show a stronger hand than this.

Not meaning to pick an argument, but what about 5♦ if partner actually bids 3NT?

No, I'd like partner to be able to suggest 4♥ with a threebagger as well!

Oh, because 3♥ does not promise five of each, then?

Ken, don't you think it's more than just merely possible that 1♠....3♥ might lead to us playing 4♠ (or maybe even 4♥) on a not_so_good 5-2 fit?

[P_Marlowe]

bid_em_up, on Jul 17 2008, 03:15 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Jul 17 2008, 02:59 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jul 17 2008, 09:23 AM, said:

For those bidding 3♥, partner will bid 3♠.

Now what?

Well, it depends on what 3♠ means.

As my 3♥ showed 5-5 pattern (at a minimum) and GF values, I'll assume that 3♠ could either be used to show no 3-card major fit but uncertainty (3NT Last Train) or a true spade fit. This seems somewhat critical to the "Now what?" question.

If partner's 3♠ does not establish a fit, but is a 3NT-LT bid, then he would have bid either 4♠ (minimal) or 4♦ (spade flag, extras) with three-card support. Thus, in this auction, I will know whether partner does or does not have a three-card fit, but I don't know in this auction whether he does or does not have a fit because I do not know what you mean by 3♠.

Given that your 3H showed 5-5, you can assume that 3S shows 3 card spade support.

Hi,

No.

If 3H was inv. 5-5, 3S is merely a preference.
The same is true, if 3H was GF, sry, what is partner suppossed
to do without a club stopper?


With kind regards
Marlowe

[gnasher]

bid_em_up, on Jul 17 2008, 09:30 PM, said:

Everybody who is bidding 4S or 5D will be going minus on the hand as there are two spade losers and two diamond losers (KJ9 over the Q, stiff 10 in other hand).

Will 4♠ necessarily go down on a non-trump lead? It sounds as though I can throw two diamonds on clubs and then cross-ruff.

[kenrexford]

Various diverging mini-discussions. Head starting to explode.

Skaeran: We both GF, so we are both ending in a game. The question is whether we end up in a good game or a bad game. After 3♥, for me, partner will have bid 4♦ or 4♠ with a three-card spade suit, depending on whether has interest or not. If partner does not have major support, he will either bid 3NT or 3♠, the latter being a basic punt-help bid with a club problem. In neither event will I insist a major; the contract will be notrump or diamonds. If partner picks a major with a doubleton, and the fit is not so good, and we go down, I'd be shaking my head at the table while I declared it.

This seems to answer the "3♠ shows a fit" nonsense.

As a final note. If 4♠ goes down despite a double fit because the KJ9 is over the Queen and we have two diamond losers, then I'll get an average board for down one, or a push.

[Rossoneri]

2H should at least allow partner to describe his hand more.

[benlessard]

I like to play that 2H (multi inv) is at least inv but doesnt guarantee 4H. Had 2H been natural 3H would have been a splinter but here its 5-5

3H show 5-5 Gf and its my bid.

After 3H

3S = im stuck
3Nt i have a club stop.
4C = slammish with a club control.
4D = slammish without a club control.
4M and 5D to play.