[TylerE]

Note: I wasn't present for the related incident, but it happened to a family member, and I play at said club regularly, although not in games run by the mentioned director.

One of our local directors sees to have some belief that director calls always involve fault and are a bad thing. Obviously not a healthy attitude, nor one in harmony with the Laws. When some of the novice players show up at the open game, she will announce, more or less word for word, "We have a new player here, <x>. Please do not call the director on them.". This announcement was made, even more firmly than usual, at the morning session. My mother, who was playing in the game, took exception to this, and took it up with the director in-between sessions.

The conversation went more or less like this, wasn't there so I can only relate what I was told second-hand:

Mother: What I am I supposed to do if they revoke?
Director: Just ignore it. They're new.
Mother: That's not fair.
Director: Don't call. Some of the new players are being scared away.
Mother: But it says on the scoresheet to call the director in the event of irregularity.
Director: Just ignore it. <Goes on and on, in a rather rude manner.>

Surely this can't be right? My mother sent an e-mail out to the local directors (We have 4, who run 5 different sessions under 3 different "clubs", but they share a site, equipment, etc.) detailing her thoughts on this issue, but not sure what's going to come of that. The one director who works most with the "bad" TD isn't the type to get involved.

[han]

Not sure what your question is but no, it's not right. It is important for new players to see the director as part of the game, and that director calls do not have to be unpleasant.

[helene_t]

Better emphasize that it's important that the newbies learn that a TD call is not an accusation, rather than saying "it's not fair".

Maybe better to go via the TC or management board instead of talking to directors.

Anyway, I wouldn't be too optimistic about this. People are often very opinionated about such issues and it can be a thankless task to educate them.

[SoTired]

is this a one-time forgiveness or a one-month pass? Do you get penalized for calling the director?

I can understand forgiving any hesitation ruling against a newbie for an extended period of time, but not for rule infractions like revoke or insufficient bid.

So you just make a ruling at the table? "You revoked! You have to show me your whole hand and I get to chose what card to play. And I get 2 tricks. Don't tell me no... I am North, I determine the rules at this table."

[HeavyDluxe]

Sorry if this turns rant-ish...

It's only been about 2 years since I played my first live duplicate at a club. I walked in alone to a local club where everyone is 25+ yrs my senior and knows one another.

So, I understand the feelings a newbie has approaching a club game.

Even so, you need to teach people the game and that game has rules. It is the attitude of the (experienced) people at the table and the director that intimidates new folks - not the director call in and of itself. If the players are polite to the new person, things are explained pleasantly, and encouragement is offered new folks *will* come back.

Similarly on BBO... It burns me up to no end when someone, who plainly has BEGINNER or NOVICE in the profile, sits down only to be browbeaten with a thousand '????????'s or 'faster pls!!!!!!'s ...

If someone claims to know something and sucks, taunt them mercilessly. But if someone is trying to learn the game, try to be humane in dealing with them.

[jtfanclub]

HeavyDluxe, on Jul 10 2008, 11:59 AM, said:

Even so, you need to teach people the game and that game has rules. It is the attitude of the (experienced) people at the table and the director that intimidates new folks - not the director call in and of itself. If the players are polite to the new person, things are explained pleasantly, and encouragement is offered new folks *will* come back.

To me, there are two kinds of director calls.

One is for an actual violation. Revoke, lead out of turn, insufficient bid. You should always call the director for these. Not calling the director can have huge repercussions (such as experienced players browbeating a trick or two out of beginners for a revoke when the experienced players had all of the post-revoke tricks). Call, darn it!

The other is for a *potential* violation. Fingering cards in the bidding box, hesitations, etc. Those aren't violations, but they provide UI which could cause violations in the future. Those, I don't care about. I'd never call the director on a true newbie on those (although you have to watch out for "kitchen bridge" sharks, who act like newbies and take advantage of these).

There are middle ground cases, like exposed card (should be a violation, I usually tell them to pick it up if it's a club game and I'm the opponent, even though I'm technically breaking the rules by doing so). But I think newbies understand that when there's a real violation, the director has to be called. To protect the newbies, if nothing else.

[matmat]

jtfanclub, on Jul 10 2008, 12:09 PM, said:

HeavyDluxe, on Jul 10 2008, 11:59 AM, said:

Even so, you need to teach people the game and that game has rules.  It is the attitude of the (experienced) people at the table and the director that intimidates new folks - not the director call in and of itself.  If the players are polite to the new person, things are explained pleasantly, and encouragement is offered new folks *will* come back.

To me, there are two kinds of director calls.

One is for an actual violation. Revoke, lead out of turn, insufficient bid. You should always call the director for these. Not calling the director can have huge repercussions (such as experienced players browbeating a trick or two out of beginners for a revoke when the experienced players had all of the post-revoke tricks). Call, darn it!

The other is for a *potential* violation. Fingering cards in the bidding box, hesitations, etc. Those aren't violations, but they provide UI which could cause violations in the future. Those, I don't care about. I'd never call the director on a true newbie on those (although you have to watch out for "kitchen bridge" sharks, who act like newbies and take advantage of these).

There are middle ground cases, like exposed card (should be a violation, I usually tell them to pick it up if it's a club game and I'm the opponent, even though I'm technically breaking the rules by doing so). But I think newbies understand that when there's a real violation, the director has to be called. To protect the newbies, if nothing else.

This might fit into your second set, but it is somewhat different in nature -- calling the director on slow play. Doing something like this on a n00b would qualify as total badgering.

[pclayton]

If you don't split up up a game between experienced and 99rs, this is not an uncommon attitude of a director. I don't see much of a problem with it either.

Duplicate bridge is a very intimidating environment if you've never been there before. If you are a regular and a new person revokes, do you really care that much? Do you want to take advantage of the rules to get an additional one or two tricks out of someone you are already have a vast advantage over?

9 out of 10 times I will tell them to put the card back in their hand for a lead out of turn or an exposed card, or I'll even ask them if the have a card in the suit to avoid establishing a revoke. However, the other day I had a wide open suit and a n00b tried to lead the suit out of turn. This time I enforced my rights.

If its a club championship or NAP qualifying, I'll enforce the rules. Obviously anything higher than a club game I'll be as tough as anyone.

Please don't flame me back with crap like "they need to learn the rules". Of course they do, but they need to learn to follow suit first.

[awm]

The concern is that there is a perception among many players (including fairly experienced club players) that any call of the director is an accusation of cheating. By saying things like "don't call the director on the new players" we encourage the view that calling the director is an accusation.

I agree that calling the director on tempo issues and such against new players is not a good idea, and that it is possible to use director calls to intimidate inexperienced players. But at the same time, I think calling the director for revokes, leads out of turn, and so forth is the right thing to do. When it's obvious to everyone at the table (including the new players) that some irregularity has occurred then call the director.

[kenrexford]

"Charlie, I know that you have a club in your hand."

"No I don't!"

"Charlie -- check in with the spades."

"Oh yes -- I see it."

This conversation has been repeated countless times in club games. It is a good conversation to practice.

Another good one, when LHO puts a pass card on the table, is to either agree with his or her suggestion that you pass, or to decline the suggestion and instead bid. "Thanks for the idea, Charlie, but I think I'll open this 1♣."

[han]

This thread is no fun, I agree with pretty much everbody, including Adam.

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Jul 10 2008, 03:16 PM, said:

Totally agree with what Adam wrote, was gonna write almost exactly the same thing.

Your formatting wouldn't have been as nice, though.

[blackshoe]

jtfanclub, on Jul 10 2008, 12:09 PM, said:

I'd never call the director on a true newbie on those (although you have to watch out for "kitchen bridge" sharks, who act like newbies and take advantage of these).

I agree in principle with most of what you said, but this deserves comment, I think.

You do not call the director "on" someone, and you should not refer to it in that way. The director call is a request for help to resolve an irregularity, not a report of malfeasance. It is important, IMO, not to give the impression that calling the director is an accusation, and to quash any phraseology that does so.

[blackshoe]

pclayton, on Jul 10 2008, 12:35 PM, said:

If you don't split up up a game between experienced and 99rs, this is not an uncommon attitude of a director. I don't see much of a problem with it either.

Duplicate bridge is a very intimidating environment if you've never been there before. If you are a regular and a new person revokes, do you really care that much? Do you want to take advantage of the rules to get an additional one or two tricks out of someone you are already have a vast advantage over?

9 out of 10 times I will tell them to put the card back in their hand for a lead out of turn or an exposed card, or I'll even ask them if the have a card in the suit to avoid establishing a revoke. However, the other day I had a wide open suit and a n00b tried to lead the suit out of turn. This time I enforced my rights.

If its a club championship or NAP qualifying, I'll enforce the rules. Obviously anything higher than a club game I'll be as tough as anyone.

Please don't flame me back with crap like "they need to learn the rules". Of course they do, but they need to learn to follow suit first.

Making your own rulings at the table (even — or perhaps especially — if you're a director yourself)) is never a good idea.

You can always ask the director to waive any penalty. Most sensible directors will grant the request, and indeed welcome it, where newbies are involved.

[barmar]

blackshoe, on Jul 10 2008, 05:41 PM, said:

You can always ask the director to waive any penalty. Most sensible directors will grant the request, and indeed welcome it, where newbies are involved.

The problem is that the process itself is intimidating. Newbies are already quite nervous when they're playing in an open game. When you invoke a formal process like this, they often get completely flustered.

[matmat]

barmar, on Jul 11 2008, 09:30 PM, said:

The problem is that the process itself is intimidating. Newbies are already quite nervous when they're playing in an open game. When you invoke a formal process like this, they often get completely flustered.

maybe the way to call a director on a noob is to first talk to them for 10-20 seconds, calmly, explaining that it's just a quirk of the game that the director needs to be present when there is an irregularity or correction to be made, not that they screwed up or cheated or whatever, and then summon the TD.

I've had some director calls at the table where the person calling just raised their arm and then yelled at the top of their lungs for the director. I think such behavior is blatantly rude and was certainly intimidating when I was learning to play the game.

[JoAnneM]

If it is a player's first time at a duplicate game then I think the director should not be called for mechanical infractions having to do with the bidding box (let the players at the table help them), hesitations (they are just nervous), leading out of turn (nervous again, partner please ignore the lead), but revokes and bids out of turn should require the director - to protect the opponents.

At our club most new players are not new to bridge, just new to duplicate. We would love to find some players new to bridge. Yoo hoo, anyone out there?

[Gerben42]

Quote

Mother: What I am I supposed to do if they revoke?
Director: Just ignore it. They're new.
Mother: That's not fair.
Director: Don't call. Some of the new players are being scared away.
Mother: But it says on the scoresheet to call the director in the event of irregularity.
Director: Just ignore it. <Goes on and on, in a rather rude manner.>

Surely this can't be right? My mother sent an e-mail out to the local directors (We have 4, who run 5 different sessions under 3 different "clubs", but they share a site, equipment, etc.) detailing her thoughts on this issue, but not sure what's going to come of that. The one director who works most with the "bad" TD isn't the type to get involved.

It's this kind of social bridge that I find extremely antisocial...