[jocdelevat]

Dealer: East Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ 863 ♥ AQ532 ♦ AT ♣ QJ3

West North East South

 -     -     Pass  1♥
 Pass  2♣    Pass  3♣
 Pass  ?  


My pards most of them intermediates playing sayc.

I thought when I support pard suit they cannot pass at least one round . is that true? Here I open 1h then i support my pard suit which had the hand I post.
Does pass here by my pard is corect or he should bid? what about his 2c is that corect?

[analysismi]

Your partner's 2C shows 10+ points and 4 clubs. Your 3C response shows 13-15 and (usually) 4 clubs, but the bid can be made with 3 card support if 2H and 2NT both seem like worse lies. If your partner has a minimum or is missing stoppers in both unbid suits he is entitled to pass. You may have no 3NT game because opps have a running suit or you just have about 24 points as a team, usually not enough for 3NT. And you already know you have no major fit.

This is another place you need partnership agreement. If your p responded to 3C with 3D would that be a stopper ask or a stopper show? I think undiscussed I would play it as showing a diamond stopper and denying a spade stopper. But if you have a regular partner it pays to discuss how you will use the three level after a 1M-2m-3m auction.

[awm]

This auction is one of the great mysteries of SAYC.

The SAYC documents indicate all three of:

(1) The 2♣ bid shows only 10+ hcp and 4+♣
(2) The raise could be on a minimum opening bid
(3) Responder's 2/1 call promises a rebid unless opener's next bid is at game level

So it appears that this bid "can be minimum" but "is forcing" which is quite nonsensical.

The consensus among good players who play standard in serious partnerships (and I admit there are not many of these any more, but back in Eddie Kantar's tournament days there were quite a few) is that 3♣ is forcing and shows extras, and with a minimum opener should never rebid above two of his original major, which is forcing one round and kind of a "catch-all" with many awkward hands.

In any case, over 3♣ bidding a new suit should be location of values, initially aimed towards finding stoppers for 3NT (but could also be a cuebid). Bidding three of opener's suit shows a fit and creates a force. Bidding 3NT suggests playing there and promises both unbid suits stopped (and probably not too much beyond the minimum 10 hcp).

[Codo]

Adam puts it so nicely. Yes, 3 Club is forcing for most of us today.

[benlessard]

Quote

So it appears that this bid "can be minimum" but "is forcing" which is quite nonsensical.

I think that is because people bid at the 2 level with crappy 10-11 pts hands and their 1Nt is 6-9. The SAYC i prefer and what i suggest to play is that 1Nt isnt forcing and 2/1 are almost GF. (2/1 except when responder suit is repeated & without 1Nt forcing)

The only times where a 2/1 isnt GF is when
1--responder rebid his suit and openener dindt show extras values
2--responder has 10-11 pts with 5H he can bid 2H followed by 2Nt.
3- When opponent interferred and you dont have a stopper in their suit, stopping at 4m is possible.



1S-----2Y-----3Y = GF

1S-----2H----3m = GF since opener showned extra strenght.

1S-----2C----2H------???
any bid except 3C is GF. (2nt is GF)

1S-----2H-----2S------???
here 2Nt and 3H arent forcing the rest is GF.

So that with 10-11 pts with an unrepeatable minor suit you cannot make a 2/1 and should bid 1nt or 2Nt.

But with 10-11 pts and 5H its just too dangerous to bid 1Nt or 2Nt so here 2H followed by a NF 2Nt is possible.

This IMO is the best and easiest thing to teach beginners. Its doesnt involved 1Nt forcing and the forced 3 cards rebids by opener flase preferrence etc...

Most 2/1 auctions are GF like in a full 2/1 setup.
The biggest inconvenient vs full 2/1 is that you lose a GF bid (repeating your suit isnt GF

1S----2C-----2S-----here with a great hand you cannot rebid 3C.

[gwnn]

don't support partner without a fit. 3 cards is not a fit. I don't understand why many people seem to think 1M-2m; 3m shows 3. just rebid 2♥.

{exception: many experts play

1m-1M
2M

that it can be 3 cards. But here there's much more space and many a time the auction will die at 2M and 4-3's will play well and the other alternative 1NT would not have played as well.}

[analysismi]

gwnn, on Jul 11 2008, 05:03 AM, said:

don't support partner without a fit. 3 cards is not a fit. I don't understand why many people seem to think 1M-2m; 3m shows 3. just rebid 2♥.

{exception: many experts play

1m-1M
2M

that it can be 3 cards. But here there's much more space and many a time the auction will die at 2M and 4-3's will play well and the other alternative 1NT would not have played as well.}

I agree, I would rather rebid a 5 card major at the 2 level with a minimum hand. I was quoting SAYC, not best practices. I would play 1M-2m-3m as showing extras, 4 cards in the minor, and forcing to 3NT or 4 of the minor. But undiscussed I believe pass is possible if you haven't agreed that opener can only go up to 2 of his original major with garbage.

[Quantumcat]

What's wrong with a rebid of 2NT? 12-14 balanced?

You should only have to bid 3C on 3 cards if you have 4 spades and 1 diamond?

"{exception: many experts play
1m-1M
2M
can be 3 cards."

I thought this was normal practice?

[awm]

Quantumcat, on Jul 11 2008, 11:09 AM, said:

What's wrong with a rebid of 2NT? 12-14 balanced?

You should only have to bid 3C on 3 cards if you have 4 spades and 1 diamond?

Two issues here:

(1) The 2NT rebid by opener is similarly mysterious in SAYC. All indications are that it could be a minimum (cheapest notrump rebid) and that it is forcing (responder promises a second call unless opener's rebid is at game level). This is nonsensical. Again, a commonplace solution is to play that opener never bids above two of his major with a minimum hand and that the 2NT rebid then shows moderate extras.

(2) Bidding 2NT should suggest cards in the unbid suits. Some hand like ♠xx ♥AQJxx ♦xxx ♣AKx doesn't really seem suitable for a 2NT rebid after 1♥-2♣ and must rebid either 2♥ or 3♣.