[analysismi]

Which 8 card fit do you prefer? Why?

[Rossoneri]

Either hand is the "short hand" in a 4-4 fit.

[kenrexford]

As a generalization, the 4-4 because of the possible additional ruff.

There are obvious exceptions.

A not-so-obvious exception is relatively recurring, such as where the 4-4 fit is something like Axxx-Kxxx with a pitch source out there.

[CSGibson]

in choosing between the two, the 4-4. I can set up the 5-3 for pitches, but it's less likely to make much of a difference if the 5-3 is trump

[han]

From bidding practice today:

Qx
Axx
AKxx
Qxxx

x
Kxx
QJxx
AKJxx

North is dealer. Where do you want to be and how do you get there?

[Gerardo]

Good hand to illustrate the point, Han.

[kenrexford]

1NT(15-17)-3♠(1345/1354, GF with 12+ HCP)
4♦-4♥(cue)
6♣*-6♦

IMO, 6♣ shows two 4-card suits. With two 5-card suits, 5NT would be the call.

Alternatively:

1NT-2♠(MSS)
3♦-3♠
6♣ (or screwing around and then 6♣)-6♦

Good problem. Responder must know the right move.

BTW -- you might like another idea.

1M-2M(constructive)
3new(natural GT/ST)-3NT

I use this 3NT to show a power raise of the new suit.

♠AQxxx ♥x ♦AKJx ♣Axx
♠Kxx ♥Axx ♦Qxxx ♣xxx

1♠-2♠
3♦-3NT(4-card diamond support, maximum, three assured covers)

Opener wonders whether the diamond grand is percentage or not (Does partner have the 10? Does partner have the 10?), whereas the spade contract max is 11.

[cherdano]

Ken, why does opener deny 4 clubs in both of your sequences? Does he already know responder has 5 clubs and 4 diamonds and is angling for the heart pitch?

[kenrexford]

cherdano, on Jul 12 2008, 10:52 AM, said:

Ken, why does opener deny 4 clubs in both of your sequences? Does he already know responder has 5 clubs and 4 diamonds and is angling for the heart pitch?

I'm not sure I follow the question, especially as Opener would not deny something he is looking at.

4♦ does not deny four clubs. Responder has shown one or both four-card or longer minors. Opener knows that the better fit is probably the one where the 4-4 fit is trumps and the alternative is the trick source. So, he bids diamonds first, planning on bidding clubs later, to give Responder a choice. If he bids clubs first, he cannot do that.

It is thus the proper order to bid the suits in order to show 4-4.

I suppose that it would be nice for 4♣ to actually be an asking bid. Something like 4♦ = 1345 max, 4♥ = 1354 max, 4♠ = 1345 min-middle, 4N = 1354 middlish, 5♣ = 1354 min. Something like that. Then, 4♦ could be a power heart raise and 4♥ a minimum heart raise.

[Free]

4-4 if I have both of them, otherwise I prefer a 5-3 fit.

[1eyedjack]

If I have 2 x 5-3 fits and a 4-4 fit to choose from, I generally prefer one of the 5-3 fits

[lexlogan]

han, on Jul 12 2008, 04:12 AM, said:

From bidding practice today:

Qx
Axx
AKxx
Qxxx

x
Kxx
QJxx
AKJxx

North is dealer. Where do you want to be and how do you get there?

Now change the hands to:

KQJx
Ax
Axxx
Qxx

x
Kxx
Kxxx
AKJxx

and we'll hope you aren't slavishly devoted to 4-4 fits. I once had an auction where, with three fits to choose from, partner carefully selected the 4-4 fit for slam with something like Jxxx opposite Axxx.

One important point is that you generally need a lot of controls for it to make a difference which 8 card fit you play in. At the part-score level, it is rare to be able to take advantage of the 5 card suit for pitches. Most of the time, you'll take the same number of tricks in either suit, or it will vary randomly depending on splits, who's on lead, etc.

Make no mistake -- I voted to prefer the 4-4 fit, and hands like my example are less common than Han's. Just don't substitute "4-4 is better than 5-3" for using your head.

[1eyedjack]

Good post, lexlogan

lexlogan, on Jul 14 2008, 06:12 PM, said:

I once had an auction where, with three fits to choose from, partner carefully selected the 4-4 fit for slam with something like Jxxx opposite Axxx.

1eyedjack, on Jul 14 2008, 05:45 AM, said:

If I have 2 x 5-3 fits and a 4-4 fit to choose from, I generally prefer one of the 5-3 fits

I detect a theme. Even then, I stress "generally".

[Codo]

Without much informations the 4/4 fits seems to work often better then the 5/3 fit, because of the possibility to make either hand your main hand and because of the possibility to discard on the 4. and 5. card in the 5 card suit.

However, there are hands where 5/3 is better:

1. IF the trumps are poor.
2. if the trump suit breaks 4-1, it is often better to play in the longer fit, especially if you don't need the discard.
3. Sometimes you can "discard" cards on your long trumps, if you play a dummy reversal.

But overall the 4/4 fit is preferable.