[Walddk]

The_Hog, on Jul 3 2008, 02:02 PM, said:

Agree with Roland. Not within cooee of a reverse.

Thanks for adding a word to my English vocabulary. I had no clue re "cooee" until I looked it up.

An expression "within cooee of" has developed. It means "not far from", and seems to be confined to New Zealand and Australian English.

Roland

[han]

kenrexford, on Jul 3 2008, 07:30 AM, said:

han, on Jul 3 2008, 07:25 AM, said:

I agree with Ken that if 1NT shows 8-10 then it seems right to allow for reverses to be a bit lighter. However, the actual hand is far far too light, that's not a reverse at all.

Does anybody think that 4D by Jon should be a bluhmer like call, showing a good hand for clubs in context and nothing wasted in diamonds? I do, though I don't think it should deny the diamond ace. If you are not sure about 5C or 6C and you don't dare to bid 4C or 4H then 4D seems a good bid.

If 3♠ is a natural pattern bid, showing either a fragment or a COV (stiff or worthless doubleton diamond), then probably yes. I'm a little uncomfortable about reliance on the diamond being short, though, in which case there may be easy contructions where Opener needs the diamond control. The doubleton possibility may throw off the usual expected meaning. I was debating this myself in my mind.

Opener with 2425 should just bid 3NT over 1NT I think. Or open 1NT.

[655321]

kenrexford, on Jul 2 2008, 09:48 PM, said:

The availability of a waiting 1♦ bid means that many folks define 1NT here as 8-11, whereas after 1♦ it might be 6-9, or even 6-11.

kenrexford, on Jul 3 2008, 07:19 AM, said:

As mentioned, the 1NT bid was 8-10.  A lot have 8-11. 

Yes, 8-10 is a fairly common range, especially when not playing inverted minors. But (minor point perhaps), Ken, I have never met one of the 'many folks' who play 8-11. If you tell me you have met a pair who plays this of course I believe you, but 'many folks'? Perhaps it is a geographical thing.

[helene_t]

The upper limit of the 1NT response is a hand just short of inviting opposite the weak balanced variant of the 1♣ opener. So if you play a 15-17 1NT and think that you need 11 points to invite opposite max. 14, you cannot play the 1NT response as 8-11. Maybe some who play a 14-16 1NT opening play the 1NT response as 8-11, though.

[Fluffy]

han, on Jul 3 2008, 12:25 PM, said:

Does anybody think that 4D by Jon should be a bluhmer like call, showing a good hand for clubs in context and nothing wasted in diamonds? I do, though I don't think it should deny the diamond ace. If you are not sure about 5C or 6C and you don't dare to bid 4C or 4H then 4D seems a good bid.

Jumping in partners singleton shows 0 HCP in that suit, but given the level we are in I would rather take it as ♦A since we don't know if partner is bidding based on diamond void.

I though that bidding 4♥ already implied having 0 HCP in diamonds. Really playing in Moysan fit when the 4 carder is condemned to ruff sounds suicidy to me. But there are others who seem to think otherwise.

[kenrexford]

655321, on Jul 3 2008, 07:34 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Jul 2 2008, 09:48 PM, said:

The availability of a waiting 1♦ bid means that many folks define 1NT here as 8-11, whereas after 1♦ it might be 6-9, or even 6-11.

kenrexford, on Jul 3 2008, 07:19 AM, said:

As mentioned, the 1NT bid was 8-10.  A lot have 8-11. 

Yes, 8-10 is a fairly common range, especially when not playing inverted minors. But (minor point perhaps), Ken, I have never met one of the 'many folks' who play 8-11. If you tell me you have met a pair who plays this of course I believe you, but 'many folks'? Perhaps it is a geographical thing.

Wow. The entire bridge club of NGF's where I grew up played 8-11 here. Must be a geographical thing. Who knew?

[kenrexford]

helene_t, on Jul 3 2008, 07:42 AM, said:

The upper limit of the 1NT response is a hand just short of inviting opposite the weak balanced variant of the 1♣ opener. So if you play a 15-17 1NT and think that you need 11 points to invite opposite max. 14, you cannot play the 1NT response as 8-11. Maybe some who play a 14-16 1NT opening play the 1NT response as 8-11, though.

Yeah, I think you hit on the key. When you play 14+ to 17, then 1NT is 8-11. Technically, "8 to 11-" sometimes with 2NT as 11+ to 13.

[cherdano]

What about 1♦-1N-2♠? Here more strains are possible, is it still better to play 2N as natural? And if you do, is 3♣ forcing?

[benlessard]

With ,KJ6,AJ87,3,KQJ62 i would reverse after a 1nt that show 8-10. In teams i think that passing 1Nt is poor. We have a far shot at making 3Nt or 5C and maybe even 4H (if partner bypassed a H suit) and if partner is minimum we are safe at 3C. A 2C bid would be improve the contract and a signoff and i dont like 3C because partner will downgrade too much his majors queens.

Quote

What about 1♦-1N-2♠? Here more strains are possible, is it still better to play 2N as natural? And if you do, is 3C forcing?

You really need a way to signoff in 3C. So IMO 3C should be Soff and 2Nt either GF (imps) or nat (MP). If the bidding goes 1C----1S------2D----- ???

Here you need to soff in 4 denomination so 2H as and art slow down work better.

[fred]

cherdano, on Jul 3 2008, 09:33 PM, said:

What about 1♦-1N-2♠? Here more strains are possible, is it still better to play 2N as natural? And if you do, is 3♣ forcing?

Can't say for sure if it is better, but I still play 2NT natural here. For me 3C would be non-forcing.

Assuming 1NT denies as much as an invitational hand with 6 clubs, I don't think it is especially important to be able to distinguish between min and max 1NT responses that contain 6+ clubs. I would just bid 3C with most such hands regardless of whether I had 6 or 9 HCP and leave the rest (if there is a rest) up to partner.

We probably do not want to be going anywhere anyways unless partner has a club fit and/or extra HCP, especially considering there is a good chance that we have already wrong-sided 3NT. So I personally don't think it is a big deal that the non-forcing 3C rebid has a fairly wide range.

Another way to look at this: Do you really want to force to game just because you have (say) 8 HCP and a reasonable 6-card club suit? How well do you think game will play opposite some of the "light shape reverses" that have appeared in this thread?

Some maximum 1NTs with 6 clubs will be suitable for a (natural) 2NT rebid, a move toward a high-level diamond contract, or possibly a heart raise.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Apollo81]

fred, on Jul 2 2008, 09:23 AM, said:

But even if you disagree with this, surely 4C cannot be forcing and it is getting a ton of votes! I would (far) sooner bid 6C than 4C here.

I strongly agree with this.

[skjaeran]

I'm not happy with the 3♣ rebid at all, but we seem to have survived that stupidity (except for partner's actual hand, that is....).

Now I'm bidding 4♦ - even after the auction this far, this can only be a slam try in clubs, saying that I have a great hand for a club slam after this sequence. I doubt partner can imagine anything better than what I've got here.