[rbforster]

Playing my strong club, certain auctions show a strong 1NT that could be off-shape before revealing anything about responder's suits (1♣-1♦-1N for example). 5M332 and 4441's are possible, 22(54) if appropriate, even (422)5, (431)5, in addition to the classic balanced shapes.

Has anyone seen strong NT methods that cater to these sorts of possible shapes by opener, while still hopefully transferring, inviting, and finding major suit fits?

[kenrexford]

Not sure if this applies, but I seem to recall that one of the versions of Neapolitan or Blue Club or Roman Club had a 1NT opening that could be either balanced OR unbalanced with clubs. Meaning, not one or the other as a coice, but either simultaneaously, with some sort of unwind. Maybe a non-forcing 2♣ Stayman-ish bid was included (pass with weakish and clubs, answer with balanced, higher with strongish and clubs; maybe something like that).

I cannot remember wher I saw it, but it was probably in an old book on the subject.

...

Aha! Found one thing. In a 1958 book by Charles Goren ("Goren Presents the Italian Bridge System"), he described the "Neapolitan Club" as it was understood by him from the 1957 international bridge team competition. The 1♣ opening showed clubs, but the pattern could be a balanced hand with 3334 or some 4432 with four clubs and a bad side four-card suit (any), 5332 with long clubs, or 6+ clubs with no four-card side suit.

I think this later developed into "club one-suiter or any balanced," but THAT I cannot find anywhere.

[Free]

I've been playing 11-14HCP 1NT with any 4333/4432/5332/4441 and 5422 (not 5-4M). This is basically the same as yours, except 5431's.

I really like HEEMAN, because it doesn't care what opener holds. It just describes responders hand, and opener decides what the best contract is knowing 2 hands.

[rbforster]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I was thinking a little more about the issue of NT systems in a precision context. For example, I usually just play one of the standard "strong NT" systems over the following precision auctions

1♣-1♦-1NT where 1♦ negative was 0-8 and 1NT was 17-19

or

1♣-1♦
1♥*-1♠# * - artificial 20+, # - artificial 2nd negative 0-4
1NT (20-21)

Note however, that standard strong NT systems aren't really designed for a limited responder which we have in both these cases. They contain all sorts of sequences that initiate slam tries that are almost never going to be useful here. It's a whole lot more common for example to have in precision a hand with 7 points and 4M-5m that might want to invite while showing its minor suit if no major fit was found (and either invite or maybe just bid game if a major fit is found). But

...
1N-2♣
2♦-3m

is GF in standard NT systems which seems pretty rare in this case. I suppose ideally I'd want to play a "strong NT" system designed opposite a passed hand with more emphasis on invites and signoffs and less on strong game-going hands. Of course I don't think anyone that plays a strong NT plays a separate passed hand system, so maybe finding this already developed is hoping for too much.

Edit to add: maybe if I tweak the responding ranges some so responder has at least a game force when he's on the top of his range we could use more of the sequences for (showing) shape relays. The approach of showing the NT bidder what your shape is seems better able to cater to the occasional off-shape NTs that get bid with strong hands (like 4441's). Standard strong 2NT methods just give up on this since there isn't much space, but starting at 1NT there should be space to investigate more carefully in game forcing auctions.

[Hilver]

Take a look at the solution in Revision Club. The disadvantage is You would have to learn a completely new bidding system :-(
You can download The Revision Club at http://www.geocities...neill_2000/sys/

[Double !]

kenrexford, on Jul 1 2008, 07:46 PM, said:

Not sure if this applies, but I seem to recall that one of the versions of Neapolitan or Blue Club or Roman Club had a 1NT opening that could be either balanced OR unbalanced with clubs.  Meaning, not one or the other as a choice, but either simultaneously, with some sort of unwind.  Maybe a non-forcing 2♣ Stayman-ish bid was included (pass with weakish and clubs, answer with balanced, higher with strongish and clubs; maybe something like that).

I cannot remember where I saw it, but it was probably in an old book on the subject.

...

Aha!  Found one thing.  In a 1958 book by Charles Goren ("Goren Presents the Italian Bridge System"), he described the "Neapolitan Club" as it was understood by him from the 1957 international bridge team competition.  The 1♣ opening showed clubs, but the pattern could be a balanced hand with 3334 or some 4432 with four clubs and a bad side four-card suit (any), 5332 with long clubs, or 6+ clubs with no four-card side suit. 

I think this later developed into "club one-suiter or any balanced," but THAT I cannot find anywhere.

Ken: i think that you might be mistaken.

in the Roman Club system (almost as complex as glen's ETM TOPS), a 1 club opener showed one of three types of hands: a balanced 4432 or 4333 12-16 hcp, a balanced 21 to 26 hcp, or a strong two bid.

in the Neapolitan club (precursor to Blue Team Club system and, one might say, Precision), a one club opening simply showed any hand with 17+ hcp, and the responses were usually showing the number of controls that responder held. an opening of 1nt showed a balanced hand in the 12 - 16 pt range. the 2C opener showed less than 17, at least 5 clubs, often with a second suit, or a 6-card, 1-suited hand.

my sources are 1) "Contract Bridge Summary" by Albert Morehead, 1963, and "The Complete Italian System of Winning Bridge" by Edgar Kaplan, 1959.

I never knew that Goren had written a similar book two years prior. But, then again, he seemed to have something to do with a lot of books that came out, either writing or endorsing.

DHL

[PrecisionL]

Rob F, on Jul 1 2008, 07:10 PM, said:

Has anyone seen strong NT methods that cater to these sorts of possible shapes by opener, while still hopefully transferring, inviting, and finding major suit fits?

Well, Keri over NT could work here (I have used it in my Precisions Systems). 1♣ - 1♦ - 1NT - 2♣ puppets to 2♦ and now responder bids 2M = GI and 4+ of the major. Opener passes with minimum and 3,4 card support, shows 4 spades with only 2 hearts, or bids 2NT with only 2 Spades, and now responder could theoretically bid 3m to play since the GF hands don't apply.

Reference: Bid Better, Much Better After Opening 1NT by Ron Klinger. 2001. Two editions available weak or strong NT. Master Bridge Series.

Larry

[kenrexford]

Double !, on Jul 19 2008, 07:09 PM, said:

Ken: i think that you might be mistaken.

Well, I'm definitely not mistaken. The book is sitting right beside me, and it clears says what I saw earlier.

[PrecisionL]

Bridge With the Blue Team by Forquet, 2000:

1NT: "This shows a balanced hand with 13-17 points. If the strength is 13-15 points, opener will hold length in clubs. Where the strength is 16-17 points, any balanced shape is permissible."

They did not open 1♦ on a 2-card suit, thus 1NT. With 15 hcp and 3 diamonds, open 1NT per Reese in The Blue Club.

Also: The Italian Blue Team Bridge Book by Garozzo & Forquet, 1969.

Larry

[Zelandakh]

Anything wrong with using puppet here? One version (there are many)

2♣ asks for 5 card majors
2♦/2♥ are transfers in your preferred style
2♠ = range ask, or weak take-out in ♣; or slammy with both minors
2N = 5 spades, 4 hearts, invite
3suit = natural, slammy (could switch to invitational in your context)
3N = sign-off

1N - 2♣ - 2♦ = no 5-card major
then
2♥ asks for 4 spades
2♠ shows 4 hearts
2N = both majors, invite
3♣ = both majors; GF
3♦ = 5-5 or more majors, weak or GF
3major = splinter
3N = sign-off

You can fill in the gaps to cover the hands that require stop asks (there are enough bids) and do not need to learn a completely different structure. Alot depends on just how much system you want to commit to memory, and whether you prefer asking, telling, or a mix of both.