[mike777]

Late last night against a well known forum poster you have this problem.

MP Unfav Vul.

p!=(1nt!)=?

1) any general points on how to bid against 10-12 nt opening bids.
2) For the rest of this thread please assume partner with his pass had denied 11 hcp and many unbalanced ten hcp hands.
3) Assume you play Capp.
4) Your hand is:

AQJ6....4...T8....AT8762..............YOUR CALL AND WHY?

5) If you pass then assume:

P=(1NT)=P=(3H=WEAK)
P=P=??

TY IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR REPLYS.

[Vilgan]

If playing Cap, I am torn between 2♠ and 2♣. P is not an option for me. Since it is MP's, I will probably trot out 2♠ and hope I score a 4/3 fit.

Regardless of the auction: after 3♥ weak, if partner passes again I will likely do so as well. I don't see a good choice that does not pose a good risk of turning a + score into a - score. We usually have some sort of hcp to bid over a micro NT (constructive = the win over weak) so if they don't have a double themselves, I am not going to double and put them in an awkward position. If the opps are +140 or -50 and we are supposed to be +130 in clubs or something, I think we chalk it up to a victory (here) for the weak NT.

[jtfanclub]

Vilgan, on Jun 13 2008, 10:15 AM, said:

If playing Cap, I am torn between 2♠ and 2♣. P is not an option for me. Since it is MP's, I will probably trot out 2♠ and hope I score a 4/3 fit.

Regardless of the auction: after 3♥ weak, if partner passes again I will likely do so as well. I don't see a good choice that does not pose a good risk of turning a + score into a - score.

I can show spades and a minor, right? So why not?

If partner passes 3♥, and I trust the opps, I would X. We have a 10-12 bid across a weak bid. I've denied hearts. Logically, there should be no hand where we should allow them to play 3♥ undoubled.

But maybe their weak bid is a trap. In which case I've got to pass. Oh well.

[kenrexford]

Capp played. So, I bid 2♣. I have a one-suited hand. Seems obvious.

Now, I'll assume that the auction comes back to me similarly to what has transpired after the pass:

P-1NT-2♣!-3♥!-P-P-?

If so, I'll step out there and double. I think this shows (presumably) spades and a longer minor.

[mikeh]

I am not going to comment on how to bid this hand playing capp: I know of no good player who plays capp (ok, I am sure that there may be some) and that is because it is an inferior method. I will comment on playing against the 10-12, and feel qualified to do so, having played 10-12 for many years in some tough fields.

1. Don't overbid.. far too many non-experts feel that they can bid with weaker hands against the weak notrump than against the strong. Stop it. There are several reasons for this advice:

i. game is still on for your side, far more often than over a 15-17 1N, so your bidding needs to have some element of constructive meaning, while over a 15-17, your primary goal is to disrupt their auction

ii. If lho has the balance of power, you are going to be hammered... it is even worse than when most of the hcp are on your right.

iii. partner needs to be able to trust you.. this is really a subset of (i)

iv if you do bid lightly, and they don't nail you, but bid on to their game, they will be well-placed in the play due to the auction

My preferred method against weak notrump is not complex but seems effective:

x = penalty oriented: I like it to be 15+, most of my partners like it 14+. Creates a force to 2♥, and doubles by either partner are takeout

2♣ both majors

2♦/♥: transfers

2♠: a good single-suited minor

2N: both minors

3suit: preemptive

I have reversed 2♠ and 2N in one partnership.

This method is on in balancing seat as well.

[Sambolino]

i resent capp too - but baze-cohler played it what do i know?

[kenrexford]

Sop, what would you do with this hand, Mike? Is this hand good enough to bid 2♠? If so, would you then double 3♥ (if 3♥ was bid and defined as weak), and would this show spades with a still-undisclosed minor?

Or, would you pass? If you passed, what would you do with your methods when 3♥ comes back to you?

FWIW, my PARTNER'S methods, which I happen to play (disclaimer -- not a wild idea that I came up with while drinking brandy), are that 2♣ is minors, 2♦ majors, 2NT hearts and a minor, X...2NT spades and a minor. In this case, I'd have a problem and would probably blast 3♣ because of my shape, planning to double 3♥ for hearts and spades. May be a bit of an overbid, but I like my playing strength.

[mikeh]

kenrexford, on Jun 13 2008, 10:59 AM, said:

Sop, what would you do with this hand, Mike?  Is this hand good enough to bid 2♠?  If so, would you then double 3♥ (if 3♥ was bid and defined as weak), and would this show spades with a still-undisclosed minor?

Or, would you pass?  If you passed, what would you do with your methods when 3♥ comes back to you?

FWIW, my PARTNER'S methods, which I happen to play (disclaimer -- not a wild idea that I came up with while drinking brandy), are that 2♣ is minors, 2♦ majors, 2NT hearts and a minor, X...2NT spades and a minor.  In this case, I'd have a problem and would probably blast 3♣ because of my shape, planning to double 3♥ for hearts and spades.  May be a bit of an overbid, but I like my playing strength.

Two issues: what would I do with the hand in my preferred methods, and what do I think of Ken's preferred method.

1. I would bid 2♠... good minor suit overcall. Obviously imperfect, but this is an opening hand with good playing strength so I won't pass. I know of NO good pairs who play that 3♥ over this would be weak... if they play lebensohl, it is forcing, and if they play rubensohl or some other variant of transfers, they would bid 3♦, invariably played, in my experience, as invitational or better.

But if they did play 3♥ as weak, partner is allowed to double responsively... if he passed, I'd go quietly.

2. In my view, any defence to 10-12 1N that does not include a penalty double is unplayable in the long run.

10-12 has lost some of its popularity for a variety of reasons, but these reasons, as I understand them, have little to do with its vulnerability to penalty doubles. There are costly negative inferences when we pass in a 10-12 situation. There are problems with range rebids after a 1 minor opening: is the 1N rebid 13-17... too wide, or 13-16.. requiring jumps to 2N to be 17+... too dangerous... or do we distort our minor shape (as Kokish advises) so that 1♣ then 1N shows a different range than 1♦ then 1N.. but may lose a minor fit especially in competition.

But the reality is that the 10-12 will sometimes go for a huge number... I remember going for 1100 white while our teammates went +110... yes, both pairs had better places to play, but rescue methods sometimes get you to your second best fit.

Put it this way: I have my doubts about the viability of 10-12, but I would happily play that method for the rest of my life if told that the opps cannot make a strength showing, penalty oriented double.

[pclayton]

I pass. Tough hand to show unless you are playing DONT or Woolsey.

Maybe we can balance over 2♠.

[ArtK78]

FWIW, had Mike bid 2♠ over 1NT, I (the "well known forum poster") would have bid 2NT Lebensohl, planning to bid hearts to play.

I prefer Rubensohl, but my partner is slow to adopt "new" methods.

By the way, it might have been more accurate to describe 3♥ as "to play." Strictly speaking, it shows long hearts and no interest in game. The range is 0-11. In ACBL Speedball games on BBO, I tend to give explanations that are concise and understandable, rather than get in all of the details.

I know that in the outline of the responses to the 10-12 1NT opening prepared by Soloway, he describes the 3♥ bid as preemptive. That, too, is accurate, although potentially misleading, as the hand does not have to be "weak."

[jtfanclub]

ArtK78, on Jun 13 2008, 01:56 PM, said:

I know that in the outline of the responses to the 10-12 1NT opening prepared by Soloway, he describes the 3♥ bid as preemptive. That, too, is accurate, although potentially misleading, as the hand does not have to be "weak."

Yes, that would be the danger in Xing 3♥.

Obviously, I'm against passing with this. If I pass, I'm not intending to balance over 3♥. If I balance over 2♥, partner's going to say 3♦, and then what have I accomplished exactly? I have a bid that shows spades and a minor. If I don't make that bid, partner should be able to assume that I don't have spades and a minor. If I'm not willing to call this 'spades and a minor', then to be blunt I shouldn't be playing Capp.

Of course, most experts don't play Capp. Then they can pass this. I'm sure they'll do great. But my point is, if you agreed on Capp, play the damn thing. If you don't like the system, don't agree to it.

[rogerclee]

jtfanclub, on Jun 13 2008, 12:43 PM, said:

But my point is, if you agreed on Capp, play the damn thing. If you don't like the system, don't agree to it.

Yes, bidding judgment is overrated.

[jtfanclub]

rogerclee, on Jun 13 2008, 02:46 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jun 13 2008, 12:43 PM, said:

But my point is, if you agreed on Capp, play the damn thing.  If you don't like the system, don't agree to it.

Yes, bidding judgment is overrated.

Hey, if you think this hand is too weak or too balanced to find a bid, good for you.

We'll just save the Capp for the 7-6 hands.

[mike777]

As a side note I am told that Mike Passell loves the 10-12 nt esp at imps(but this is B/I) and that is another discussion for another time.



He has a defense that I am told is well thought of but I do not know it and I do not know if he also plays it against a "normal" wk nt range.

"The point is most methods are not good for dealing with 4cM longer minor hands."

I am told that if the opps are nice enough to be silent then In Mike P's defense:

P=(1NT!)=(2h!)=p
2s!=p=2nt!...shows this hand.

2h=tfr to spades, usually 5 or more.
2nt=4s and 6clubs.

[foo]

mike777, on Jun 13 2008, 10:03 AM, said:

Late last night against a well known forum poster you have this problem.

MP Unfav Vul.

p!=(1nt!)=?

1) any general points on how to bid against 10-12 nt opening bids.
2) For the rest of this thread please assume partner with his pass had denied 11 hcp and many unbalanced ten hcp hands.
3) Assume you  play Capp.
4) Your hand is:

AQJ6....4...T8....AT8762..............YOUR CALL AND WHY?

5) If you pass then assume:

P=(1NT)=P=(3H=WEAK)
P=P=??

TY IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR REPLYS.

A1=
(1N!)-X shows a Strong NT
(1N!)-pa-pa-X shows a Weak NT
Then pretend They did not open 1N unless they compete further (or you as Advancer are so broke that you can not stand defending 1NX. In which case, run to any spot that looks playable.)
Go look up "Hello vs NT" for bidding your shapely hands vs the KNT.

Do not worry about partscores unless you have a hand that is shapely and has good value placement. Remember the KNT users have sacrificed partscore accuracy in order to play their gadget. The goal when defending vs the KNT is to do everything you can not to miss games or slams and to X Them whenever it rates to be odds on for Us to collect a penalty.

Capp is not the best defense vs the KNT, but it is far better than any method that does not allow for a penalty X.

Oh, and you have the right to know =everything= They know about what hands are by agreement allowed or disallowed to be shown with a KNT opening. If they can not or will not give you a complete description of their agreements with regards to the KNT, get a Director over to your table pronto.

Another thing. The KNT causes problems for the so called "NT ladder". For example, the "standard" ladder is
open, rebid 1N => you have a Weak NT
open 1N => you have a Strong NT

This mean that pairs that play 1N= 10-12 (or 1N= 10-13) have to figure out a way to show all the other flat hands. So you'll see things like
open 1C, rebid 1N shows one range (say 15-17) and
open 1D, rebid 1N shows the other range (say 13-14)
Notice that now Their 1m openings are alertable and do not say anything about the minor actually bid.
...and that means you should compete almost as aggressively against such 1m openings as you are supposed to against artificial 1C and 1D openings like those in Forcing 1C systems.
If you compete properly against a KNT pair's artificial ways of showing the other NT ranges, you can maximize the price They pay in exchange for playing the KNT.

[ArtK78]

foo, on Jun 18 2008, 12:12 AM, said:

Oh, and you have the right to know =everything= They know about what hands are by agreement allowed or disallowed to be shown with a KNT opening. If they can not or will not give you a complete description of their agreements with regards to the KNT, get a Director over to your table pronto.

Another thing. The KNT causes problems for the so called "NT ladder". For example, the "standard" ladder is
open, rebid 1N => you have a Weak NT
open 1N => you have a Strong NT

This mean that pairs that play 1N= 10-12 (or 1N= 10-13) have to figure out a way to show all the other flat hands. So you'll see things like
open 1C, rebid 1N shows one range (say 15-17) and
open 1D, rebid 1N shows the other range (say 13-14)
Notice that now Their 1m openings are alertable and do not say anything about the minor actually bid.
...and that means you should compete almost as aggressively against such 1m openings as you are supposed to against artificial 1C and 1D openings like those in Forcing 1C systems.
If you compete properly against a KNT pair's artificial ways of showing the other NT ranges, you can maximize the price They pay in exchange for playing the KNT.

I have no idea what prompted this comment about knowing everything the weak NT side knows about the bidding. The opening bid is a 10-12 1NT. What else is there to know?

And the comment about the NT ladder is interesting, although misplaced. While it is true that some players who play mini NT do differentiate between 1C-1X-1NT and 1D-1X-1NT, not all do. For example, since it was my partner who opened 1NT (10-12) on the hand that sparked this thread, I can say with assurance that we do not differentiate our 13-17 point ranges in that manner. Our 1NT rebid is 13 to a normal 16, and our 2NT rebid is a very good 16 up to 18. We open 2NT on 19-21 when the 1NT opening bid is 10-12 (nonvul 1st and 2nd seats).

[foo]

ArtK78, on Jun 18 2008, 08:58 AM, said:

I have no idea what prompted this comment about knowing everything the weak NT side knows about the bidding.  The opening bid is a 10-12 1NT.  What else is there to know?

And the comment about the NT ladder is interesting, although misplaced.  While it is true that some players who play mini NT do differentiate between 1C-1X-1NT and 1D-1X-1NT, not all do.  For example, since it was my partner who opened 1NT (10-12) on the hand that sparked this thread, I can say with assurance that we do not differentiate our 13-17 point ranges in that manner.  Our 1NT rebid is 13 to a normal 16, and our 2NT rebid is a very good 16 up to 18.  We open 2NT on 19-21 when the 1NT opening bid is 10-12 (nonvul 1st and 2nd seats).

Often KNT pairs allow shapes to be opened 1N that would be considered unusual by most. 6322's, 7222's, 5M332's, etc.

If a KNT could by agreement contain shapes other than 5m332, 4432, and 4333, the opponents have the right to know. Ditto if the KNT pair by agreement passes some shapes in the NT opening range that would naively be expected by most to be opened 1N. (Many KNT pairs have agreements to not open many 4333's 1N for instance.)

Also, many KNT pairs claim to play 1N=10-12 but fudge 13 HCP hands into the opening so often that they really should say they are playing 1N=10-13.

That the KNT destroys the KNT pair's NT ladder is obvious. The pair must do something about it, and the opponents are entitled to know what that is.

Regardless of what the KNT pair does to make up for the destruction of their constructive NT ladder, the opponents have opportunities available to them to take advantage of whatever they have done.

If your 1N rebid shows 13-16, your 2N rebid is 16+ - 18, and your 2N opening is 19-21, you have reduced the accuracy (and strength where the 2N bids are concerned) of your NT ladder to the point that your constructive bidding with it is far more guesswork than standard. Opponents should stay out of these auctions more than they normally would and let you self destruct as often as possible. An increased use of penalty X's is also warranted to take maximum advantage of the time you end up cornered in a bad contract.

[ArtK78]

foo, on Jun 18 2008, 10:42 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Jun 18 2008, 08:58 AM, said:

I have no idea what prompted this comment about knowing everything the weak NT side knows about the bidding.  The opening bid is a 10-12 1NT.  What else is there to know?

And the comment about the NT ladder is interesting, although misplaced.  While it is true that some players who play mini NT do differentiate between 1C-1X-1NT and 1D-1X-1NT, not all do.  For example, since it was my partner who opened 1NT (10-12) on the hand that sparked this thread, I can say with assurance that we do not differentiate our 13-17 point ranges in that manner.  Our 1NT rebid is 13 to a normal 16, and our 2NT rebid is a very good 16 up to 18.  We open 2NT on 19-21 when the 1NT opening bid is 10-12 (nonvul 1st and 2nd seats).

Often KNT pairs allow shapes to be opened 1N that would be considered unusual by most. 6322's, 7222's, 5M332's, etc.

If a KNT could by agreement contain shapes other than 5m332, 4432, and 4333, the opponents have the right to know. Ditto if the KNT pair by agreement passes some shapes in the NT opening range that would naively be expected by most to be opened 1N. (Many KNT pairs have agreements to not open many 4333's 1N for instance.)

Also, many KNT pairs claim to play 1N=10-12 but fudge 13 HCP hands into the opening so often that they really should say they are playing 1N=10-13.

That the KNT destroys the KNT pair's NT ladder is obvious. The pair must do something about it, and the opponents are entitled to know what that is.

Regardless of what the KNT pair does to make up for the destruction of their constructive NT ladder, the opponents have opportunities available to them to take advantage of whatever they have done.

If your 1N rebid shows 13-16, your 2N rebid is 16+ - 18, and your 2N opening is 19-21, you have reduced the accuracy (and strength where the 2N bids are concerned) of your NT ladder to the point that your constructive bidding with it is far more guesswork than standard. Opponents should stay out of these auctions more than they normally would and let you self destruct as often as possible. An increased use of penalty X's is also warranted to take maximum advantage of the time you end up cornered in a bad contract.

Suffice it to say that I disagree with most of what you have posted.

To say that I need to disclose the expected distribution of our weak NT is similar to saying that one must disclose the expected distribution of a strong NT. For all practical purposes, they are about the same. In fact, there is an active thread in which the merits of opening 1NT (strong) with a singleton is being debated.

I know that my partner and I try to limit the distributions of our weak NT to the expected distributions - 4333, 4432, 5m332, 6m322 (rare). One reason for doing so is that our structure in response to 2♦ (forcing to game Stayman) forces us to disclose our distribution, and only the expected distributions are included in these descriptions. So a departure from the expected distributions could result in an impossible rebid over a 2♦ response.

As for "fudging" to include 13 in the 10-12 HCP range. besides the fact that such a fudge would destroy responder's ability to accurately judge the merits of inviting or bidding game, you are accusing the weak NT pair of deliberately misleading the opps as to the actual range for the 1NT opening. If the 1NT opening is 10-13, it should be stated to be 10-13. If not, it is 10-12. Essentially, your argument boils down to "players who open 10-12 1NT are unethical." I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not mean to say that.

And as for constructive auctions in which the opening bid is one of a minor, the rebid ranges are slightly larger than standard bidders. One weighs the pros and cons of the methods one uses. I find that one must use one's judgment more in these auctions than standard bidders with a narrower rebid range, but we do OK. The advantages of using the 10-12 NT more than outweigh whatever loss of accuracy occurs in those auctions which start out 1m-1x-1NT (or 2NT).