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Dis-repect is official bbo policy? reply from abuse@bbo

#21 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-June-07, 09:14

DukeofYork, on Jun 7 2008, 05:04 AM, said:

My main concern is to the actual wording in the bbo reply

"which tourneys are worth joining, which aren't. This is especially true for the free tourneys."

Why are FREE tournaments being singled out for derision? I took this to be dis-respectful of the vast army of Directors and Hosts of free tournaments, who have made bbo the great site that it is today. Perhaps I over-reacted.....but.....

THIS is what bothered you so much?? Just what the world needs, another professional offense-taker.
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#22 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2008-June-07, 11:09

DukeofYork, on Jun 7 2008, 06:04 AM, said:

Why are FREE tournaments being singled out for derision? I took this to be dis-respectful of the vast army of Directors and Hosts of free tournaments, who have made bbo the great site that it is today. Perhaps I over-reacted.....but.....

Fred posted his detailed reply, but I'll add my opinion. I think free tourneys are treated less seriously for a simple reason: they're free, and you get what you pay for. When you pay for something, you expect a certain level of quality, and you have a right to be upset if you give up money and don't get something worthwhile in return -- you've been cheated.

On the other hand, when something is given away for free, you take whatever you can get. While it would be nice if it were high quality, that's entirely up to the donor. I give my old, worn-out clothes to charity, not the good stuff I might still want to wear.

#23 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2008-June-07, 11:11

Old York, on Jun 4 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

"Hi,

We believe in letting the free market forces determine which tourneys are worth joining, which aren't. This is especially true for the free tourneys."

I have intentionally not responded to this thread. Every active forum reader knows that the BBO pretty much leaves the "free TD's" alone. I think fred explained this very clearly.

The paragraph the DukeofYork found so objectionable (i assume because he is a free Tournament director) is listed above. But what he is missing is that while the BBO has a hands off rule (for the most part) about free TD's, they have specific rules for the fee-based directors which must be followed. And the BBO powers that be take a much more active role in making sure those events conform acceptable standards -- like having published rules, starting on-time (no time slippage), not too many advertisements, and the like. That is, BBO does enforce certain rules on the fee-based directors, but not on the Free ones.

So the paragraph about free-market forces applies to both free and fee based ones, but this is "especially true" for the free ones as it is much more buyer beware (no oversight by BBO at all -- beyond normal curtesy).

For the record, anyone with a clean bbo record who ask is given the power to be a tournament director. This power is removed for a whole variety of offenses, usually dealing with cheating (TD cheating, or TD publically accusing others), rudeness to players (and/or TD playing "god"), TD starting tourneys and then not finishing them (either creating one in the distance and not being here to run it, or starting and leaving, or starting and cancelling), not responding to too many players (typical example playing TD who never subsitutes anyone into empty seats), etc.
--Ben--

#24 User is offline   DukeofYork 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 08:28

Can I thank Fred and Inquiry for their gracious treatment of my friend's complaint. Fred's e-mail made all the difference in the world, my friend was deeply insulted by the way she had been treated, both by the offending td and by the reply from abuse@bbo. Fred has demonstrated that he also has a gift for explaining awkward situations in a way that tends to satisfy the person who complained.

I have seen this standard reply many times, most recently after a complaint of racial intollerance. Two Turkish players were booted for speaking Turkish at the table, and alerting bids in Turkish. It must be emphasized that all 4 players at the table were Turkish.

I fully understand that td's are a precious commodity, and many frivolous complaints are sent to bbo. It would be impossible to investigate every complaint fully.

Tournament Hosts are awarded their status by bbo, but can delegate the task of director to absolutely anyone, clean bbo record or not. Perhaps Tournament hosts need to be made more aware of the malpractices of their chosen td's?

Most respectable Tournaments and Private Clubs advertise a website and e-mail address. I would suggest to ALL bbo members that they send a copy of complaints to the contact addresses. As a tourney host, I would be deeply indebted to any who sent in complaints or suggestions (or praise :D ).

Tony
Still hanging on in quiet desperation
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#25 User is offline   rigour6 

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Posted 2008-July-18, 14:37

I think what we saw here is an example, all too easy to occur by e-mail, of people "talking past" each other. On one of the rare occasions I submitted a complaint to abuse, I too was a little taken aback by the stock reply - at first. But you have to try and make allowances, I have no idea how many (and what quality) complaints these guys get in a given day.

As is my wont, I'll make a few oblique comments:

- Fred's response is, as usual, awesome, and a credit to him and the site. It also demonstrates the great advantage (and substantially greater effort) of a personalized reply. The person felt listened to by Fred, and they probably didn't feel listened to before then - which I say not to criticize the original response.

- We have an expression out my way which goes like this: "opinions are like (insert anatomical word here), everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs doesn't stink." A little harsh yes but one of things you do find (especially when people are working in a second language) is that standards of what should be said and how vary from culture to culture (e.g. see above simile). So misunderstandings are easy.

- While I agree that the BBO folks have a role in all this, they can't be and we wouldn't them to be Big Brother. At the end of the day, the community has to be SELF-POLICING. It also has to recognize that you aren't gonna get along with everyone, and that's OK. Let people find a game.

- I came back today and TD'd after some time away, got called to a table that was in full flight, one side calling the other cheaters, and before we were done (I was firing the sub requests out like cruise missiles) we managed three or four expletives (including the delightful referring to someone's mother as the c-word) and of course, a racial slur. And me watching it all unfold, praying for subs, and trying to ignore the other TD calls coming in. What can I say, I guess I just got lucky, but bottom line, nothing to do with me, I'll never know and can only guess at what was said before I showed up. The point being, the players themselves have to own the game. If they are going to go crazy, there's little I can do except get there after I'm called, boot and ban, get subs, and try not to let the fact that three people lost it ruin the experience for the other 73 playing. I may the all-powerful TD but at the end of the day, the players actually own the game as much as I do. My responsibility is to encourage and back their best instincts, to set a tone, to try and create a space where it is clear rudeness and intolerance aren't going to be allowed to stay. But, you know, there's thousands of them and one of me, and if I had to guess, I'd say the guys I booted and banned are probably mad at me, because how dare I when it was clearly all the other guys' fault etc etc. And this is for a fun game with no money on the table. Huh?

- So while I continue to empathize with people who have bad TD experiences, try being a TD sometimes, which typically requires you to give up your time to be subject to abuse, make substitutions for the guys who redouble the last contract in any series of boards because they've had a bad round, then leave when it's clear it won't make, try to explain to people that precision auctions aren't illegal, I turn the barometer off because when it's on deletions triple etc etc ad nauseum. 76 people played in the 9 board tourney I hosted for free today, and at the end? You guessed it. Not one said thanks.

- Finally, much as I know it's problematic, I still think that when a tourney ends, players should be allowed to "rate the TD". What you measure, you achieve. If we allow players to give feedback on the TD, I suspect TDs would improve. I realize this suggestion is not without its problems.

- What, still reading my rant? Well, god bless you. I'm done for now.
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#26 User is offline   Tola18 

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Posted 2008-July-19, 02:22

rigour6, on Jul 18 2008, 03:37 PM, said:


-  Finally, much as I know it's problematic, I still think that when a tourney ends, players should be allowed to "rate the TD".  What you measure, you achieve.  If we allow players to give feedback on the TD, I suspect TDs would improve.  I realize this suggestion is not without its problems.


I do make a quotation of this suggestion, so it is seen more widely.

Yes, perhaps it is a way. Worth a discussion.
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