[pclayton]

Had this one in the last round of a club game today:

I open 1♠. LHO autos 1♥. My pard says "I accept 1♥". My LHO says he can't accept it because he made a 'mechanical error' and pulled the wrong card and meant 2♥.

Director comes over and agrees with the 1♥ bidder and he's allowed to correct to 2♥.

Q1. Did the Director rule correctly?

Q2. If the Director did rule correctly, am I in posession of UI, since my pard states he wanted to accept the 1♥ call?

Partner's motives (hidden): P

Spoiler

ard had T9x Kxx QTx Txxx and wanted to bid 1♠. A sort of mini-raise.

[kenrexford]

Q1: TD is right if the "mechanical error" was genuine.

Q2: UI exists.

[JoAnneM]

Pulling 1H instead of 2H is not a mechanical error, it is a brain fart. Pulling 2D instead of 2H is a mechanical error. Players are really abusing this mechanical error thing - in my opinion.

[jillybean]

For a start, your opp cannot make his own rulings but it does seem to happen often.

Law27 Insufficient Bid;

Any insufficient bid is accepted if LHO calls and then the auction proceeds as normal.
(Conventional bids have extra restrictions.)

If LHO does not make a call the director first must determine if the bid was inadvertent, in which case the call is made sufficient and the auction proceeds as normal. With the information given I don’t see how he made this ruling.

It is not clear if by LHO saying ‘I accept 1♥’ makes the bid sufficient or if LHO needs to be quick witted and make a call.

[blackshoe]

Law 25 takes precedence over law 27. If 25A applies (bid was inadvertent, partner has not called, player attempted to correct immediately he realized what he'd done), then he corrects the bid, and that's an end to it. If 25A does not apply, we're in 25B territory. More on that later.

Here, there was an irregularity (IB by second seat). Third seat stated that he accepted the IB. Attention has thus been called to the irregularity, and the TD must be called. Offender's comment - his "ruling", in effect - is irrelevant, although he should perhaps be cautioned not to make such comments.

Apparently at this point someone called the TD. Good. Now, Joanne suggests that pulling 1♥ instead of 2♥ is not inadvertent. She has a point. Nonetheless it's a matter of TD judgement, based on his determination of the facts, and it appears the TD at the table felt it was inadvertent. So, did the TD rule correctly? Possibly. Possibly not. You had to be there. I note that the ACBLScore Tech Files say that one should "Be liberal in judging that mechanical irregularities are inadvertent".

If the TD had decided Law 25A did not apply, we are in 25B territory. Offender has attempted to correct 1♥ to 2♥. Offender's LHO can accept this, in which case 2♥ stands and the auction proceeds normally [Law 25B1]. If he does not accept it, Law 27 applies. The bid was insufficient, and since third hand has already said he wants to accept it, that's it.

In my Law Book, Law 27 says

Quote

Any insufficient bid may be accepted (treated as legal) at the option of offender's LHO. It is accepted if that player calls.

This does not say that offender's LHO must call to accept the IB. In this case, third hand has exercised his option to accept by his statement. If he had called, then if it were ruled a 25A case, he could retract his call and substitute another, and there would be no UI to his partner [Law 16C1].

In the actual case, any information inferred from third hand's stated desire to accept the IB is UI to his partner [Laws 16 and 16A1].

[barmar]

JoAnneM, on Jun 2 2008, 11:38 PM, said:

Pulling 1H instead of 2H is not a mechanical error, it is a brain fart. Pulling 2D instead of 2H is a mechanical error. Players are really abusing this mechanical error thing - in my opinion.

While the third sentence may be true, I don't agree with the first sentence. The 2X cards are right below the corresponding 1X cards, it's very easy to grab the card above. Not as easy as grabbing the card to the left or right, especially since some bidding cards get sticky, but still not so uncommon.

[Elianna]

barmar, on Jun 3 2008, 09:22 PM, said:

JoAnneM, on Jun 2 2008, 11:38 PM, said:

Pulling 1H instead of 2H is not a mechanical error,  it is a brain fart.  Pulling 2D instead of 2H is a mechanical error.  Players are really abusing this mechanical error thing  - in my opinion.

While the third sentence may be true, I don't agree with the first sentence. The 2X cards are right below the corresponding 1X cards, it's very easy to grab the card above. Not as easy as grabbing the card to the left or right, especially since some bidding cards get sticky, but still not so uncommon.

Plus some bidding boxes are arranged "sideways". But I suspect that's not the case here.

[barmar]

Elianna, on Jun 4 2008, 01:24 AM, said:

barmar, on Jun 3 2008, 09:22 PM, said:

JoAnneM, on Jun 2 2008, 11:38 PM, said:

Pulling 1H instead of 2H is not a mechanical error,  it is a brain fart.  Pulling 2D instead of 2H is a mechanical error.   Players are really abusing this mechanical error thing  - in my opinion.

While the third sentence may be true, I don't agree with the first sentence. The 2X cards are right below the corresponding 1X cards, it's very easy to grab the card above. Not as easy as grabbing the card to the left or right, especially since some bidding cards get sticky, but still not so uncommon.

Plus some bidding boxes are arranged "sideways". But I suspect that's not the case here.

Oh, yeah, I hate those boxes. The only thing worse is left-handed boxes, although maybe we all should be forced to use them occasionally just to appreciate how lefties most of the time.

[pclayton]

My LHO had x ATxxx xx AKxxx. I'm 100% sure he did not see my 1♠ opening.

[barmar]

pclayton, on Jun 4 2008, 01:44 AM, said:

My LHO had x ATxxx xx AKxxx. I'm 100% sure he did not see my 1♠ opening.

Probably right, although the standards for 2-level overcalls have deteriorated in recent years, and I'm sure I've seen people overcall 2♥ on crap like that.

[pclayton]

barmar, on Jun 3 2008, 10:15 PM, said:

pclayton, on Jun 4 2008, 01:44 AM, said:

My LHO had x ATxxx xx AKxxx. I'm 100% sure he did not see my 1♠ opening.

Probably right, although the standards for 2-level overcalls have deteriorated in recent years, and I'm sure I've seen people overcall 2♥ on crap like that.

This player would probably Michaels the hand. I think it was r/r fwiw.

The speed of 1♥ also suggested he didn't see my call.

[SoTired]

The player stated that it was a mechanical error. Although it seems more likely that the offender did not see the 1S call, it is possible it was a mechanical error. We cannot be sure. It is also common practice to accept as truthful player statements unless you have evidence otherwise.

Therefore, I think the director made the correct ruling. And, anyway, there was no damage here so WTP? Be nice and smilingly accept the 2H bid.

Personally, I don't like to take advantage from silly mistakes at a club game. At a regional or national, I will use every advantage I can, but at a club game I don't need to win that badly. I remember once a defender ruffed one of my tricks and promptly led the suit he just ruffed. I started laughing and said, "That's not fair." I made him take back the trump and we made the trump card a penalty card. He lost nothing even though according to the rules it was an established revoke. He called me a "gentleman." Nicest complement I have ever had at the bridge table.

[TimG]

SoTired, on Jun 4 2008, 01:18 PM, said:

Personally, I don't like to take advantage from silly mistakes at a club game. At a regional or national, I will use every advantage I can, but at a club game I don't need to win that badly.

I hope not every advantage.

[pclayton]

SoTired, on Jun 4 2008, 10:18 AM, said:

The player stated that it was a mechanical error. Although it seems more likely that the offender did not see the 1S call, it is possible it was a mechanical error. We cannot be sure. It is also common practice to accept as truthful player statements unless you have evidence otherwise.

Therefore, I think the director made the correct ruling. And, anyway, there was no damage here so WTP? Be nice and smilingly accept the 2H bid.

Personally, I don't like to take advantage from silly mistakes at a club game. At a regional or national, I will use every advantage I can, but at a club game I don't need to win that badly. I remember once a defender ruffed one of my tricks and promptly led the suit he just ruffed. I started laughing and said, "That's not fair." I made him take back the trump and we made the trump card a penalty card. He lost nothing even though according to the rules it was an established revoke. He called me a "gentleman." Nicest complement I have ever had at the bridge table.

I wasn't upset at this at all, my pard just thought it would have been convenient to show the 1♠.

Frankly, I'm more concerned with the UI burden on me.

[jeffford76]

Your partner could have legally bid 1S without mentioning the error. If the director is then called for the "mechanical" error, and the change is made to 2H his 1S bid is still authorized information for you.

[mycroft]

barmar, on Jun 3 2008, 11:35 PM, said:

Elianna, on Jun 4 2008, 01:24 AM, said:

Plus some bidding boxes are arranged "sideways".  But I suspect that's not the case here.

Oh, yeah, I hate those boxes. The only thing worse is left-handed boxes, although maybe we all should be forced to use them occasionally just to appreciate how lefties most of the time.

I'm a leftie. When bidding boxes first came in, I had problems with backwards-facing bids. I figured it out - in about the same amount of time it took me to figure out how to reverse-fan a hand so I can actually see the markings. Try it, Americans (the Rest of the World with their 4-index cards don't have this problem); figure out how to fan your hand so you can't see any of your indexes. That's what I have to do every time.

I build my hand as normal, and pass it to my left hand for the auction. Bid with my right. At the end of the auction, put hand down, put the bids away, pick up my hand in my right hand and play with my left as normal. What's so hard about that?

Frankly, I've seen more people do more convoluted things to avoid this problem than I could imagine - and most of them are right-handed! They can't get to the "put your grip in your left hand, and bid normally" part, for some reason.

Having said all that, there was a room full of leftie-boxes in Nashville last year. Since it was the Midnights, and since I was left-handed, I decided to try it to see what it's like for "normal people". Took me three hands to break my automatic habits, and then it was - comfortable. Not anything special, definitely not something I would go out of my way to convert to (as I do with those stupid boxes that hang from the table; twist-and-drop and reduced motion from broken arm 20 years ago = pain after two rounds, and pain for three days after a session), but kind of fun.

But yeah, more fun was watching all the "normals" bid backwards all night and not really know why...