Help
I think, as well that auctions where the opponents complete the bidding (2♥) after a red-on-white 1NT overcall often feature a responder with a hand like he has.
Balance decision at MPs
#21
- Brain Farts and Actual Farts Increasing with Age
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,586
- Joined: 2005-September-21
- Gender:Male
- Location:Lima, Allen County, North-West-Central Ohio, USA
- Interests:www.limadbc.blogspot.com editor/contributor
Posted 2008-May-26, 18:57
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
-P.J. Painter.
-P.J. Painter.
#22 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-26, 21:38
pclayton, on May 26 2008, 06:20 PM, said:
Jlall, on May 26 2008, 12:47 PM, said:
pclayton, on May 26 2008, 03:16 PM, said:
Before you totally dismiss bidding as 'batshit crazy', consider a few things:
1. Pard has a smattering of points since the opps aren't in, or invited game. 3-5 by my guess.
2. Pard would have bid 2♠ with 5. Pard might have neg x'd with 4, but thats not certain.
3. Pard has a maximum of 2 hearts.
4. Pard doesn't have 6 diamonds.
I'd say the most likely patterns for pard are 3=2=4=4, 3=1=(45), 4=1=(44 or 35). The worst we can expect is 4=2=(34).
3♣ is a logical move. It will rarely be down 2 and someone has to dbl it and beat it for it to be really wrong. Defending 2♥ looks like a 30% board at best. Why are we just rolling over here?
1. Pard has a smattering of points since the opps aren't in, or invited game. 3-5 by my guess.
2. Pard would have bid 2♠ with 5. Pard might have neg x'd with 4, but thats not certain.
3. Pard has a maximum of 2 hearts.
4. Pard doesn't have 6 diamonds.
I'd say the most likely patterns for pard are 3=2=4=4, 3=1=(45), 4=1=(44 or 35). The worst we can expect is 4=2=(34).
3♣ is a logical move. It will rarely be down 2 and someone has to dbl it and beat it for it to be really wrong. Defending 2♥ looks like a 30% board at best. Why are we just rolling over here?
Why would you not expect to go down 2? You have a piece of crap and if you don't catch 4 card support you could easily go down 2 since you also have a bunch of losers and a terrible suit.
Why would you not expect to get Xed? This is a simple auction to X since you guys are almost for sure out of line. And if they use reasoning like yours they are getting a bad board when you have bid 3C anyways.. etc etc. You are really underestimating the chances that a competent LHO just cracks you with a balanced 8 count when you bid this way, let alone trumps not breaking well.
Why would you expect partner to have 4 clubs? He doesn't even have to have 3 clubs (4252). You act like partner is routinely making negative Xs with 42?? and 2+ points, it's just not happening. He can very easily have 4 spades which is not a good thing for bidding 3C vul.
Why does partner have to have 3 points? He could easily just have 1 point or 2 points. The opps don't have to try for game at MP when you have overcalled 1N and they don't even have 25 HCP.
And lastly, WHY DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GETTING 30 % FOR DEFENDING 2H???? That is a completely arbitrary evaluation. I don't know about you but I expect to get well above average in general for defending a completely normal contract. I think I defend well. I don't see how 1N then 3C can be a standard sequence of bidding since it is utterly terrible. Even if 3C makes I bet I will usually get an above average score when I defend 2H, and I don't expect it to usually make. Bidding is a crapshoot and jeopardizes and ABOVE average expected score, not a below average one.
I get soooo tired of answering posts like this. You go completely overboard on your views and have to get personal.
Where did I get personal? I never even said your name, or anything about you. I responded only to your post, with my bridge "reasoning." I pointed out where I disagreed with your post, and where the flaws in your logic were to me. Do you know the definition of personal?
http://dictionary.re...browse/personal
There you go.
Some examples of a personal response to your initial thread would have been:
"You suck at bridge."
"You are an idiot."
"Despite your best efforts to ever amount to anything at this game, you are still terrible. I find it sad that someone can spend so much time and effort on the game of bridge and still be so bad."
"You are a failure at life."
To you it is personal if someone, especially me, disagrees with you. You are insecure about your bridge (for good reason) and cannot handle it when someone who is better than you disagrees with everything you say and offers bridge "reasoning" to try to back it up. You do not have any interest in my reasoning unless it agrees with yours, and have no interest in trying to learn or get better. You only want to be defensive and prove that you are right. The fact is, I was not personal at all in my original post. But you're right, I cannot stand you or your attitude, let alone your bridge.
#23
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 612
- Joined: 2007-December-31
- Location:Bethesda, Maryland, USA
Posted 2008-May-26, 23:06
Maybe I should just stay on the sidelines for this, but I was thinking about this hand for a few days. Two points:
1) The 1NT...3C sequence is just so dangerous because LHO knows that (a) we are limited and (B) we are semi-balanced or balanced, so he can crack us on many hands where we are outgunned, knowing that we have no extras and his slower stuff isn't all getting ruffed off.
2) Bidding 1NT instead of 2C created this problem , not because we're in danger of getting buried in NT on running hearts, but instead because we have misled partner about how many slow tricks in their suit we have. So partner looking at Hxx or so will be relucatant to bid over the most likely strain for enemy competition, which is not what we want with our texture.
I'm all for value bids and generally agree with making the value bid when that's one of my choices, but I'm starting to think that at matchpoints, the the better call is 2C. At IMPs I would just chalk -110 at both tables up to luck and hope to make it up with some +600's in 3NT. MPs, on a hand like this, there might be a huge difference between -100/-110 or +100/+110.
1) The 1NT...3C sequence is just so dangerous because LHO knows that (a) we are limited and (B) we are semi-balanced or balanced, so he can crack us on many hands where we are outgunned, knowing that we have no extras and his slower stuff isn't all getting ruffed off.
2) Bidding 1NT instead of 2C created this problem , not because we're in danger of getting buried in NT on running hearts, but instead because we have misled partner about how many slow tricks in their suit we have. So partner looking at Hxx or so will be relucatant to bid over the most likely strain for enemy competition, which is not what we want with our texture.
I'm all for value bids and generally agree with making the value bid when that's one of my choices, but I'm starting to think that at matchpoints, the the better call is 2C. At IMPs I would just chalk -110 at both tables up to luck and hope to make it up with some +600's in 3NT. MPs, on a hand like this, there might be a huge difference between -100/-110 or +100/+110.
"It is not enough to be a good player. You must also play well." -- Tarrasch
#24
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,151
- Joined: 2003-June-11
- Location:Southern California
Posted 2008-May-26, 23:14
Justin - I don't hate you and I'm sorry that you feel that way about me.
I do forget how young you are and how I shouldn't rile you up like that. Sorry about that.
I do forget how young you are and how I shouldn't rile you up like that. Sorry about that.
"Phil" on BBO
#25
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 14,900
- Joined: 2004-May-11
- Gender:Male
- Location:Portugal
- Interests:Everything!
Posted 2008-May-27, 05:28
I just think we might have put ourselves in more trouble than a conservative bidder:
His bidding:
pass 1♥ pass 2♥
pass pass 3♣
He passes to 1♥ because of "no stopper" and "bad club suit". Now he's bidding 3♣ because "it's safe: opps have already limited themselves and found a fit, so we should have one as well."
So, by bidding 1NT and passing, there's a real chance we're losing to those players... lol.
His bidding:
pass 1♥ pass 2♥
pass pass 3♣
He passes to 1♥ because of "no stopper" and "bad club suit". Now he's bidding 3♣ because "it's safe: opps have already limited themselves and found a fit, so we should have one as well."
So, by bidding 1NT and passing, there's a real chance we're losing to those players... lol.
#26
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,728
- Joined: 2003-March-07
- Gender:Male
- Location:Laos
- Interests:Wagner and Bridge
Posted 2008-May-27, 07:53
Ok since no one else has said anything. Ben and moderators: I think Lall's post is offensive in the extreme. There has been a post already on bad language and here we have a poster acting like an absolute spoiled brat having a tantrum because he doesn't get his own way. Phil's post, under extreme provocation, was a model of self restraint. I am amazed Lall's post has not been expunged and a warning not issued.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#27 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-27, 08:14
The_Hog, on May 27 2008, 08:53 AM, said:
Ok since no one else has said anything. Ben and moderators: I think Lall's post is offensive in the extreme. There has been a post already on bad language and here we have a poster acting like an absolute spoiled brat having a tantrum because he doesn't get his own way. Phil's post, under extreme provocation, was a model of self restraint. I am amazed Lall's post has not been expunged and a warning not issued.
oops I used the "F" word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SORRY!!!!!!!!!! I EDITED IT OUT!!!!!!!! I FORGOT THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE "F" WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH WAIT YOU HAVE USED IT SEVERAL TIMES IN YOUR POSTS AND YOU ARE JUST MAD THAT EVERYONE HATES YOU AND YOUR STUPID POSTS, AND THAT YOU GOT CALLED OUT RECENTLY FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK NO MORE "F" WORDS!!!!!!!
#28 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-27, 08:16
pclayton, on May 27 2008, 12:14 AM, said:
Justin - I don't hate you and I'm sorry that you feel that way about me.
I do forget how young you are and how I shouldn't rile you up like that. Sorry about that.
I do forget how young you are and how I shouldn't rile you up like that. Sorry about that.
No problem, I forgot youre an insecure moron who cannot handle someone disagreeing with them and calls it "personal" when it happens. I shouldn't have riled you up either. By the way, you still did not show me where I said anything "personal" in my original post so I will continue to operate on the assumption that to you disagreement is "personal" lol.
#29
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,151
- Joined: 2003-June-11
- Location:Southern California
Posted 2008-May-27, 09:50
Jlall, on May 27 2008, 06:16 AM, said:
By the way, you still did not show me where I said anything "personal" in my original post
Quote
if they use reasoning like yours they are getting a bad board
This isn't personal to you? It's tantamount to saying "you are a bad bridge player". Maybe because I've been around the block once or twice, I have a heightened sense of when someone is insulting me. There are many more ways to insult someone personally than to call them a "moron".
Say I work for a company and we are sitting around a conference table and someone says:
"...and if we would have gone ahead and used your plan, the company would have lost millions of dollars".
Do you think the person being addressed isn't offended? Insulted? Do you think this is personal?
A more tactful way to broach a subject like this is to say, "...the project "ABC" saved money because of 1, 2 and 3...". No one gets called out, but the speaker makes the same point about one project being superior over another.
I'm probably wasting my breath here, but you did call me out on this (twice).
"Phil" on BBO
#30 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-27, 10:30
pclayton, on May 27 2008, 10:50 AM, said:
Jlall, on May 27 2008, 06:16 AM, said:
By the way, you still did not show me where I said anything "personal" in my original post
Quote
if they use reasoning like yours they are getting a bad board
This isn't personal to you?
Are you serious? You lack basic reading comprehension.
Your reasoning is "we are getting a bad board if we defend 2H here, so we should bid 3C" ie, normal mp reasoning in some situations.
So if they use that same GOOD reasoning, they will understand they are getting a bad board if 3C makes or goes down 1 so they will double you to protect their equity. PLEASE REREAD MY POST IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS lol.
Also, do not quote my posts like that. You took half of my sentence and did not even add snip or "..." You clearly took my words out of the context it was intended in since the ending of that sentence is "if you make 3C anyways." and in a paragraph where I said "you are underestimating the chances that they X you."
edit: I am seriously LOLing at your last post. I mean...lol... you don't even know how to read leading you to become randomly defensive when I was actually saying that they could apply your the reasoning you used to bid 3C to X you aggressively in 3C... which is a standard MP situation...
#31
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 14,900
- Joined: 2004-May-11
- Gender:Male
- Location:Portugal
- Interests:Everything!
Posted 2008-May-27, 10:33
one bad thing about the internet is it doesn't have ashtrays...
#32
- - - T98765432 AQT8
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 15,085
- Joined: 2005-June-23
- Gender:Male
- Location:Las Vegas, NV
Posted 2008-May-27, 10:42
whereagles, on May 27 2008, 06:28 AM, said:
So, by bidding 1NT and passing, there's a real chance we're losing to those players... lol.
You mean by bidding 1NT on this hand you might lose to players who didn't? Shocking
The_Hog, on May 27 2008, 08:53 AM, said:
Ok since no one else has said anything. Ben and moderators: I think Lall's post is offensive in the extreme. There has been a post already on bad language and here we have a poster acting like an absolute spoiled brat having a tantrum because he doesn't get his own way. Phil's post, under extreme provocation, was a model of self restraint. I am amazed Lall's post has not been expunged and a warning not issued.
Complaining about a post openly to the moderators like this instead of in private is in far worse taste than Justin's post and use of the word....do I dare type it....
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#33 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-27, 10:53
pclayton, on May 27 2008, 10:50 AM, said:
Say I work for a company and we are sitting around a conference table and someone says:
"...and if we would have gone ahead and used your plan, the company would have lost millions of dollars".
Do you think the person being addressed isn't offended? Insulted? Do you think this is personal?
"...and if we would have gone ahead and used your plan, the company would have lost millions of dollars".
Do you think the person being addressed isn't offended? Insulted? Do you think this is personal?
Oh and not that your analogy is even analagous since you were obviously not able to understand the meaning of my post but, no this situation is NOT a personal attack lol.
Your "idea" has nothing to do with you, it is an idea. It is not a part of you, it is not about you. If a company says your idea is bad they are shooting down the IDEA not the PERSON. Obviously you are not able to tell the difference. This is the same as someone saying you made a bad bid. That, also, is not a personal attack. Do you see why?
As for "Will they be offended," if they are a rational person then no they will not.
#34
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,151
- Joined: 2003-June-11
- Location:Southern California
Posted 2008-May-27, 11:05
Jlall, on May 27 2008, 08:53 AM, said:
pclayton, on May 27 2008, 10:50 AM, said:
Say I work for a company and we are sitting around a conference table and someone says:
"...and if we would have gone ahead and used your plan, the company would have lost millions of dollars".
Do you think the person being addressed isn't offended? Insulted? Do you think this is personal?
"...and if we would have gone ahead and used your plan, the company would have lost millions of dollars".
Do you think the person being addressed isn't offended? Insulted? Do you think this is personal?
Oh and not that your analogy is even analagous since you were obviously not able to understand the meaning of my post but, no this situation is NOT a personal attack lol.
Your "idea" has nothing to do with you, it is an idea. It is not a part of you, it is not about you. If a company says your idea is bad they are shooting down the IDEA not the PERSON. Obviously you are not able to tell the difference. This is the same as someone saying you made a bad bid. That, also, is not a personal attack. Do you see why?
As for "Will they be offended," if they are a rational person then no they will not.
Justin, you have no background in these matters, but I am finished trying to educate you. You don't have the foggiest notion about the concepts of tact and diplomacy.
You have no interest in my opinion and I have lost my desire attempting to show how the real world works. You seem to believe you can get all the answers from places like Wikipedia.
Have a nice day.
"Phil" on BBO
#35 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-27, 11:23
pclayton, on May 27 2008, 12:05 PM, said:
Jlall, on May 27 2008, 08:53 AM, said:
pclayton, on May 27 2008, 10:50 AM, said:
Say I work for a company and we are sitting around a conference table and someone says:
"...and if we would have gone ahead and used your plan, the company would have lost millions of dollars".
Do you think the person being addressed isn't offended? Insulted? Do you think this is personal?
"...and if we would have gone ahead and used your plan, the company would have lost millions of dollars".
Do you think the person being addressed isn't offended? Insulted? Do you think this is personal?
Oh and not that your analogy is even analagous since you were obviously not able to understand the meaning of my post but, no this situation is NOT a personal attack lol.
Your "idea" has nothing to do with you, it is an idea. It is not a part of you, it is not about you. If a company says your idea is bad they are shooting down the IDEA not the PERSON. Obviously you are not able to tell the difference. This is the same as someone saying you made a bad bid. That, also, is not a personal attack. Do you see why?
As for "Will they be offended," if they are a rational person then no they will not.
Justin, you have no background in these matters, but I am finished trying to educate you. You don't have the foggiest notion about the concepts of tact and diplomacy.
You have no interest in my opinion and I have lost my desire attempting to show how the real world works. You seem to believe you can get all the answers from places like Wikipedia.
Have a nice day.
LOL. It is amazing to me that you are still alive, I would have expected darwinism to take effect at some point.
Let's recap.
1) You post something.
2) I post why I think you are wrong.
3) You go off and say that I always make things personal (lol).
4) I ask you to show me where my original post said anything personal.
5) You take half of a sentence I wrote to try to indicate me saying something personal. You were clearly wrong (which I'm sure you now realize) and did not understand my post at all despite all the context clues being there. OK, you read too fast or whatever, not a big deal. But you can't admit that you were wrong, you do your usual dropping of the issue and hoping no one realizes what an idiot you are.
During all of this you try to post a situation that is analagous to what you perceived me to be saying (which I didn't), and it was not in fact analagous. Amusingly enough you were even wrong with what would constitute a personal attack. You think someone saying your idea would not work is a personal attack, amazing!
Then, when I point out THAT was wrong, you do your usual "I am done, you have no background in this or education." Then you discuss tact and diplomacy. Huh? Where do tact and diplomacy come into this? I fully acknowledge that telling someone their idea would lose the company millions of dollars is VERY untactful, however that is not the same as a personal attack.
Basically you are an idiot, and insecure, and you cannot handle these facts becuase you want so badly NOT to be an idiot, and you want so badly ONE TIME to be right, but you just can't be. It's ok, some people are born with limited resources mentally, they just have to accept their place in life.
#36
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,951
- Joined: 2008-April-30
- Gender:Male
- Location:Sussex, England
Posted 2008-May-27, 11:33
Jlall, on May 27 2008, 05:23 PM, said:
Basically you are an idiot,...
Ouch. FWIW, I don't think you were being personal. But that is!
Nick
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
#37 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-27, 11:34
NickRW, on May 27 2008, 12:33 PM, said:
Jlall, on May 27 2008, 05:23 PM, said:
Basically you are an idiot,...
Ouch. FWIW, I don't think you were being personal. But that is!
Nick
yep obviously it devolved into that.
#38
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 7,786
- Joined: 2004-September-05
- Gender:Male
- Location:Galloway NJ USA
-
Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.
Posted 2008-May-27, 11:50
I expect better from the combatants in this thread.
*sigh*
*sigh*
#39
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 14,900
- Joined: 2004-May-11
- Gender:Male
- Location:Portugal
- Interests:Everything!
Posted 2008-May-27, 12:00
a forum without flames is like the circus without clowns. it's not fun
#40
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,728
- Joined: 2003-March-07
- Gender:Male
- Location:Laos
- Interests:Wagner and Bridge
Posted 2008-May-27, 19:25
jdonn, on May 27 2008, 11:42 PM, said:
Complaining about a post openly to the moderators like this instead of in private is in far worse taste than Justin's post and use of the word....do I dare type it....
Do you really believe this Josh, or is this a contention born out of loyalty to a friend? If the latter, then it is misguided. For some days now the punk has publicly spewed forth bile, vitriol and personal abuse. [I use the term "punk" because I believe it has lost the right to be referred to by its name or by one of the human personal pronouns]. The comments are open, here, for all to read and it appears that any semblance of controlling it has been abandoned. Not one poster has had the courage to take the punk in hand and suggest it moderate its comments. Whether this is due to misguided loyalty or some other dubious reason is unknown to me. As it has been so public, surely a public recrimination is in order. This has gone far further than the often heated but always at least semi-civil debates of the past
A friendly word of advice. Its rantings have become so hysterical in nature that I really think it is capable of doing itself some harm. I believe it seriously needs treatment and medication for its own sake.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.