[luis]

Scoring: IMP

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Playing 2/1 where a 1M-2x;2N rebid shows doubleton in pd's suit.

The bidding was:
1s - 2d
3d - 3h
4c - 4s
6d

Lead: a trump, declarer pulled trumps (2-2) and played a spade to the K, down 1.

I want to know your opinions about the bidding, is this a good slam to play? Can you avoid it ? Should you ?

[Trpltrbl]

It might not be the best slam in the world, but I would like to be in it. It is a little unlucky that we have a lot of points, in the same suit, were we don't need them.
It is a 74,1785% slam, good enough for me. I have been in worse and I have gone down in better.

Mike

[luis]

Trpltrbl, on Mar 11 2004, 06:45 PM, said:

It might not be the best slam in the world, but I would like to be in it. It is a little unlucky that we have a lot of points, in the same suit, were we don't need them.
It is a 74,1785% slam, good enough for me. I have been in worse and I have gone down in better.

Mike

74.17% ?
If the spade ace is offside you are down one automatically.
If they lead a heart you need the hK onside and the sA onside or (KT of hearts onside).
I think is a rather horrible slam not vulnerable.

[inquiry]

Trpltrbl, on Mar 11 2004, 01:45 PM, said:

It is a 74,1785% slam, good enough for me. I have been in worse and I have gone down in better.

I assume the comma in 74,1785% should be a decimal point. Quite a precise calculation out to the 5th decimal place? But I doubt the this precise answer is anywhere near accurate.

[inquiry]

North's hand looks like a good one for a 2♦ response by his partner, the question becomes, what was 3♥? Was it "I don't have a ♥ stopper", should it be a cue-bid. Why didn't north bid 3NT over 3♥? His 4♣ bid might bypass last good spot (Well, ok, I would try too). Was he expecting the ♥King opposite for the 3♥ bid.

I think part of the problem comes about by judging South's hand worthy of a 2/1 GF response. One might treat this as a balanced hand and bid 1NT followed by some number of NT. Or bid 1NT planning on a anti-BART-type sequence to show good hand and diamonds for the 1NT bid (which I play as just this type of hand).

The second part of the problem is South was endplayed over 3♦. 3♠ would be delayed ♠ support he doesn't have it. 4♣ would be cue-bid suggesting strong slam interest becasue it bypasses 3NT and no ♥ to cue-bid. That 3♥ bid bothers me. It seems that it can't be right unless there is some conventional meaning to it. I think if you start 2♦, you are stuck with a 3NT rebid over the raise on this yuck hand, as you don't want to encourage anymore than necessary. North will not give up over 3NT, but after his 4♣ cue-bid and 4♠ response, he would be more willing to settle for game... now only if 4NT was to play on this auction.

[luis]

inquiry, on Mar 11 2004, 07:12 PM, said:

North's hand looks like a good one for a 2♦ response by his partner, the question becomes, what was 3♥? Was it "I don't have a ♥ stopper", should it be a cue-bid. Why didn't north bid 3NT over 3♥? His 4♣ bid might bypass last good spot (Well, ok, I would try too). Was he expecting the ♥King opposite for the 3♥ bid.

I think part of the problem comes about by judging South's hand worthy of a 2/1 GF response. One might treat this as a balanced hand and bid 1NT followed by some number of NT. Or bid 1NT planning on a anti-BART-type sequence to show good hand and diamonds for the 1NT bid (which I play as just this type of hand).

The second part of the problem is South was endplayed over 3♦. 3♠ would be delayed ♠ support he doesn't have it. 4♣ would be cue-bid suggesting strong slam interest becasue it bypasses 3NT and no ♥ to cue-bid. That 3♥ bid bothers me. It seems that it can't be right unless there is some conventional meaning to it. I think if you start 2♦, you are stuck with a 3NT rebid over the raise on this yuck hand, as you don't want to encourage anymore than necessary. North will not give up over 3NT, but after his 4♣ cue-bid and 4♠ response, he would be more willing to settle for game... now only if 4NT was to play on this auction.

The 3h bid is worth a debate. I thik that after 1s-2d;3d responder is always endplayed in the bidding. 3s is delayed 3 card support. 3NT should show something balanced with stoppers in the remaining suits. But now what do you do if you have
a) A slamish hand
A minimum with problems in clubs
c) A minimum with problems in hearts

3h is the only bid below 3NT so with b or c you bid 3h and now what? Imagine North is 5-3-4-1 or 5-1-4-3 does he bid 3NT wiht the 1st hand or the second one? What about 5-2-4-2? What about a 6-1-3-3 hand with horrible spades ?

Are we going to conclude that after 1M-2d;3d the auction gets impossible ? That's scaring.....

[EricK]

I don't think it is a particularly good slam.

The sequence I like is 1NT 3NT. I can imagine many people disagreeing with me though.

Eric

[mikestar]

EricK, on Mar 11 2004, 08:00 PM, said:

I don't think it is a particularly good slam.

The sequence I like is 1NT 3NT. I can imagine many people disagreeing with me though.

Eric

Asusming 15-17 NT, I think it is a great sequence. There are 18 HCP, but the spades and the doubleton Jack are horrible--a downgrade is quite reasonable, and partner will have no reason to go slamming with his hand.

Having downgraded, if partner tries for slam on a more suitable hand, your Aces will let you bid agressively.

[the hog]

This slam is less than 50%. I would be interested in knowing where the 74,1785% came from.

[inquiry]

Quote

Are we going to conclude that after 1M-2d;3d the auction gets impossible ? That's scaring.....

Yes, this is the only conclusion... you must never raise ♦ on the following auction...1♠-2♦, unless your partner has slam ambitions. Rofl....

[WGF_Flame]

its a matter of hand evaluation not much of a system, norse hand as a bad high card location, it worth slam only vs stronger then minimum 2d, the question is if the south can be said to be stronger then minimum.
on the bidding atleast the 4sp bid showed some extra so i agree with norses call for slam. if south have extra then its just unlucky.

[the hog]

Well if we are going to comment on the bidding....

I dislike 1S, except I realise this is a forced bid with 18+ if playing a 15-17 NT. 2D is fine as is 3D, which I play as showing extra values. As has been commented on already, 3H is problematical. We play it as either a stopper ask, or an advance cue. Over 3H I would bid 3N with the Nth hand and there it would rest.

Auction with my regular pd would not resemble anything like anyone else:
1C 2D
2N 3N
but that is by the by.

[Free]

This slam is more like a 25% slam (♠A and ♥K have to be onside), so I wouldn't like to be in it. I guess the key moment of this auction is 3♥...

[the hog]

Well on a non heart lead yopu can make if the S A is on side and you can set the S up for a pitch.

[Trpltrbl]

I guess I add when I need to subtract. But it basically needs the ♥K10 to be onside so you can pitch your losing ♠, that chance is 24.1785%. Or you can play for ♠ Ace to be onside and the ♠ to be breaking no worse then 4-2.
No wonder I have blond hair....

Mike

[Cascade]

What this auction needs is a quantitative bid below slam.

I don't often play 2/1 but it seems a simple natural 4NT over 3H would allow opener to evaluate his minimum.

1♠ 2♦
3♦ 3♥
4NT Pass

The 2♦ bidder should appreciate that when partner has bid spades and diamonds that one of the club or heart queens is not pulling weight.

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

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Hi friends!

Spoiler

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Luis: "I think that after 1s-2d;3d responder is always endplayed in the bidding." Luis, I think when you play any natural 2/1 GF system you will be many time "endplayed". May be is time to switch to NTC?

Spoiler

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Misho

[flytoox]

luis, on Mar 11 2004, 06:31 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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Playing 2/1 where a 1M-2x;2N rebid shows doubleton in pd's suit.

The bidding was:
1s - 2d
3d - 3h
4c - 4s
6d

Lead: a trump, declarer pulled trumps (2-2) and played a spade to the K, down 1.

I want to know your opinions about the bidding, is this a good slam to play? Can you avoid it ? Should you ?

I tihnk after 2D game force, slam is almost unavoidable. those little spades became an asset since pd has no card on it. Strictly, I think south's hand is not quite enough for a two over one bid.

Second, after pd raising to 3D, which should shows extra in 2/1, south should bid 3N, denying any slam interest. 3H is wrong in my opinion.


Fly

[flytoox]

luis, on Mar 11 2004, 07:47 PM, said:

3NT should show something balanced with stoppers in the remaining suits. But now what do you do if you have
a) A slamish hand
A minimum with problems in clubs
c) A minimum with problems in hearts

3h is the only bid below 3NT so with b or c you bid 3h and now what? Imagine North is 5-3-4-1 or 5-1-4-3 does he bid 3NT wiht the 1st hand or the second one? What about 5-2-4-2? What about a 6-1-3-3 hand with horrible spades ?

Are we going to conclude that after 1M-2d;3d the auction gets impossible ? That's scaring.....

Yes, so 3N is the only right bid in my opinion. with a slammish hand, cuebid if you have any control, without control but still want to try slam, bid 4D.


After south 3N, North still will try 4N to invite and south should reject and play there.

[Trpltrbl]

flytoox, on Mar 12 2004, 06:52 AM, said:

luis, on Mar 11 2004, 07:47 PM, said:

3NT should show something balanced with stoppers in the remaining suits. But now what do you do if you have
a) A slamish hand
A minimum with problems in clubs
c) A minimum with problems in hearts

3h is the only bid below 3NT so with b or c you bid 3h and now what? Imagine North is 5-3-4-1 or 5-1-4-3 does he bid 3NT wiht the 1st hand or the second one? What about 5-2-4-2? What about a 6-1-3-3 hand with horrible spades ?

Are we going to conclude that after 1M-2d;3d the auction gets impossible ? That's scaring.....

Yes, so 3N is the only right bid in my opinion. with a slammish hand, cuebid if you have any control, without control but still want to try slam, bid 4D.


After south 3N, North still will try 4N to invite and south should reject and play there.

I agree with 3♥ by south being an overbid. Just bid 3 NT.

Mike