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Standard 2/1 context, usually open decent 11s with a major.
atb for missing a good game
#1
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Posted 2008-May-20, 14:47
Standard 2/1 context, usually open decent 11s with a major.
#2
- Deipnosophist
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Posted 2008-May-20, 14:52
I don't assign much blame. At imps I'm game forcing on the East hand, but it depends somewhat on your aggressiveness on openings. I can't really see what west did wrong. East would bid the same way with many hands where game is really bad. I don't assign too much blame because the hands fit well. I imagine East holding say the spade Q instead of the diamond Q or even the spade Q instead of the club K and suddenly game doesn't look too good.
"Half the people you know are below average." - Steven Wright
#3
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Posted 2008-May-20, 14:57
I still don't get these.
23 total hcp, no 9 card fit, hand with fewer trumps has no shortness. Sure, the hands fit together and game can be found with techniques better than mine, but is there really blame to be assigned here? If I was sitting either side and my partner "blamed" me for missing game, I would be very unhappy.
23 total hcp, no 9 card fit, hand with fewer trumps has no shortness. Sure, the hands fit together and game can be found with techniques better than mine, but is there really blame to be assigned here? If I was sitting either side and my partner "blamed" me for missing game, I would be very unhappy.
#4
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Posted 2008-May-20, 15:03
As opener, I just accept all invites with 6-4 shape at imps and most at MP. Otherwise I would not bother to open at one level.
#5
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2008-May-20, 16:48
I'd have bid game with either hand.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#6
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Posted 2008-May-20, 17:04
Agree with gnasher.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
#7
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Posted 2008-May-20, 17:06
Opener 100%.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
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#8
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Posted 2008-May-20, 17:17
I'd blame East. I generally espouse 'invite heavy, accept light', but this hand is TOO heavy to risk a pass... we'd make the invite with a good 10, given that partner has announced at least 6 hearts, and we have a decent 12.
Put another way, this is a useful hand for application of the LTC to responder's hand. He has an LTC of 7 (well, Q9x as only 2 is a bit aggressive, but Ax in trump as one is a bit pessimistic on the auction, so that balances out). It is fair to assume that a distributional opening bid has an LTC of 7, so the combined LTC count is 14, and that means bidding a 10 trick game (subtract the combined LTC from 24 to give you an estimate of the number of tricks the two hands will take).
Throw in the number of controls held (4) and I think that bidding game is pretty clear, if red at imps.
Admittedly, a similar approach gets us an LTC of 6 from opener and an invite will usually be based on 8... but the stiff spade and paucity of controls militate in favour of rejecting the invite.
Note that I do not advocate use of the LTC as the most persuasive metric, nor as one to be applied without consideration of other factors.. controls and degree of fit being at least as important as hcp.
BTW, if you would always bid game as East (as I would at this scoring) then 3♥ shows a lesser hand.... and you can't much weaken the East hand and make game good... unless you take the strength away from the spade suit... which seems a little unfair given that responder bid 1♠ and has only 3 of his hcp there anyway. So I think that those who say that they would bid game in either seat are overbidding at least one of the hands.. and my vote goes to opener as the overbidder in that scenario.
Put another way, this is a useful hand for application of the LTC to responder's hand. He has an LTC of 7 (well, Q9x as only 2 is a bit aggressive, but Ax in trump as one is a bit pessimistic on the auction, so that balances out). It is fair to assume that a distributional opening bid has an LTC of 7, so the combined LTC count is 14, and that means bidding a 10 trick game (subtract the combined LTC from 24 to give you an estimate of the number of tricks the two hands will take).
Throw in the number of controls held (4) and I think that bidding game is pretty clear, if red at imps.
Admittedly, a similar approach gets us an LTC of 6 from opener and an invite will usually be based on 8... but the stiff spade and paucity of controls militate in favour of rejecting the invite.
Note that I do not advocate use of the LTC as the most persuasive metric, nor as one to be applied without consideration of other factors.. controls and degree of fit being at least as important as hcp.
BTW, if you would always bid game as East (as I would at this scoring) then 3♥ shows a lesser hand.... and you can't much weaken the East hand and make game good... unless you take the strength away from the spade suit... which seems a little unfair given that responder bid 1♠ and has only 3 of his hcp there anyway. So I think that those who say that they would bid game in either seat are overbidding at least one of the hands.. and my vote goes to opener as the overbidder in that scenario.
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#10
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Posted 2008-May-20, 17:31
I think east has a clear game bid, and west has a very borderline decision but I guess I'm thinking too hard of reasons not to bid game, which means I should bid game. But I blame east more.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#11 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-20, 17:35
Seriously people need to stop trying to stop in 3H, I hate to say it but just always bid game unless you both have balanced sucky hands lol.
6-4+ prime cards= game.
12 points + fit opp a 6 card suit and opener= game.
Trying to overthink these hands and make great stops in 4H is just not great bridge imo. There are just too many possibilities where you end up making game. I cannot stress any more than this that I think winning bridge often involves closing your eyes and bidding game then playing the hell out of the hand. There is a reason that if you watch a bermuda bowl or a national event or whatever you will NEVER see them stop on a hand like this. It just won't happen.
6-4+ prime cards= game.
12 points + fit opp a 6 card suit and opener= game.
Trying to overthink these hands and make great stops in 4H is just not great bridge imo. There are just too many possibilities where you end up making game. I cannot stress any more than this that I think winning bridge often involves closing your eyes and bidding game then playing the hell out of the hand. There is a reason that if you watch a bermuda bowl or a national event or whatever you will NEVER see them stop on a hand like this. It just won't happen.
#12
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Posted 2008-May-20, 18:18
East has a clear 4H bid. Not close.
For west its bordeline i can live with both pass and 4H.
For west its bordeline i can live with both pass and 4H.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
#13
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Posted 2008-May-20, 18:41
Both get the ding here. I'm not sure whats worse (passing or 3 only hearts), but it really doesn't matter.
I would have bid game with both hands.
I would have bid game with both hands.
"Phil" on BBO
#14
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Posted 2008-May-20, 19:06
What are the chances for 4♥, 60%?, both hands are borderline, don't get mad with these hands, all of us make much worse mistakes than anything done in this hand. There are better areas to improve.
#15
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Posted 2008-May-20, 19:50
East should obviously bid game. No question, at IMP bidding.
I just think Opener gets the charge because this hand is way too powerful to resign at 3♥. The spade King does not even carry full weight. It helps half of the time that the diamond ten becomes a problem. When opposite ♠xxxx ♥Ax ♦Q9x ♣Kxxx Opener wants to be in game at IMP's, he should bid the game.
I just think Opener gets the charge because this hand is way too powerful to resign at 3♥. The spade King does not even carry full weight. It helps half of the time that the diamond ten becomes a problem. When opposite ♠xxxx ♥Ax ♦Q9x ♣Kxxx Opener wants to be in game at IMP's, he should bid the game.
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#16
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Posted 2008-May-20, 22:18
gnasher, on May 21 2008, 08:48 AM, said:
I'd have bid game with either hand.
Agree
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#17
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Posted 2008-May-21, 03:54
yeah, east should bid game.
#18
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Posted 2008-May-21, 11:12
East 85%, west 100%.
Kind regards,
Harald
Harald
#19
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Posted 2008-May-21, 11:24
Hi,
If I would blame someone, it would be east.
West got asked, do you have a min. opener,
he has from a HCP point of view and the spade
shortage is nothing to cheer about.
Add to this, that the raise to 3H will be often based
on two cards, passing is fine.
East has to decide, if he should bid game or just
invite, he decideded wrong, next board.
With kind regards
Marlowe
If I would blame someone, it would be east.
West got asked, do you have a min. opener,
he has from a HCP point of view and the spade
shortage is nothing to cheer about.
Add to this, that the raise to 3H will be often based
on two cards, passing is fine.
East has to decide, if he should bid game or just
invite, he decideded wrong, next board.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#20
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Posted 2008-May-21, 12:21
skaeran, on May 21 2008, 12:12 PM, said:
East 85%, west 100%.
That's what I was saying!
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
-P.J. Painter.
-P.J. Painter.
1♥-1♠
2♥-3♥
pass