[benlessard]

optionnal. The opener should only pull with 2D and 3/4S. With xxx in diamonds a minimum hand and 4S i would also pull.

[P_Marlowe]

Jlall, on May 17 2008, 01:31 AM, said:

1N p 2H p 2S p p 3D p p X

strong NT, transfers.

Hi,

reformating to have a better understanding

1NT - (P) - 2H - (P)
2S.. - (P) - P.. - 3D
P.... - (P) - X

Penalty, showing a max. passed hand.

Opener can certainly bid 3H, if he happens to
hold 4 hearts, ... but most likely he would have
super accepted, so this option is out.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[655321]

For me this is non-penalty, so perhaps 5314 or similar. (Would 5323 want to bid? Would 5413 have bid Stayman instead of transferring?)    Perhaps 7-8 HCP. Thinks that defending 3♦ undoubled is unlikely to be our best spot.
Opener can pass, bid a new suit, bid 3 or 4 spades according to his hand.

I think opener's immediate double of 3♦ is penalties, but this would be very rare because responder may have a yarborough - for opener to double he would pretty much need to have 3♦ beaten in his own hand.

[rogerclee]

I reckon it should be cooperative.

I think pure penalty with a limited hand in front of the bidder is not useful enough in frequency.

[P_Marlowe]

Jlall, on May 17 2008, 02:48 AM, said:

Sorry but what does cooperative mean?

"cooperative" is another word for "optional",
"cardshowing", "no clear direction", "partner
do something intelligent", "blametransfer".

With kind regards
Marlowe

[marcD]

depends on vulnerabilities and form of game . MP x optionnal (more so if they are vul) as I need to protect my +110 ; teams t/o shapely hand

[gnasher]

At matchpoints, it says "I think we were making 2♠." Opener is expected to pass with two spades, bid 3♠ with four (if he can have that many) and use his judgement with three.

At IMPs, it's similar, but more penalty-oriented. Opener would still pull with four spades, but rarely with three

That might be what is meant by "cooperative".

[P_Marlowe]

Jlall, on May 17 2008, 04:13 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on May 17 2008, 03:52 AM, said:

Jlall, on May 17 2008, 02:48 AM, said:

Sorry but what does cooperative mean?

"cooperative" is another word for "optional",
"cardshowing", "no clear direction", "partner
do something intelligent", "blametransfer".

With kind regards
Marlowe

So how many diamonds does it show? 1? 2? 3? 4?

..., please keep in mind, that I said X was penalty (*).
But to answer your question, at least 3.
If we have a fit in our major, partner can run, and
if he does not, than at least they dont play a 8 card fit.
And if one adds a max. hand, we may also start calling
the X penalty.

(*) I dont think, that playing X as cooperative makes a lot
of sense, because the guy, who Xed, denied a inv. hand
and does not know, if the opener holds a min or max.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Free]

Imo X should show 6-7hcp with a 5-3-1-4 distribution (or similar).

[whereagles]

Jlall, on May 17 2008, 06:31 AM, said:

1N p 2H p 2S p p 3D p p X

strong NT, transfers.

I have this defined as penalty, because I define our side's auction as "no better fit available" (and when such auctions happen, dbl = pen).

Penalty doesn't mean you got KQJT, but sure got points. Something like ♦Hxx and 7-8 hcp is enough.

[mikegill]

At matchpoints, my understanding is that it means "partner I have a maximum non-invite, please use your judgment as to whether we should play 3s or 3dX." I think opener pulls 100% with 4 spades, a majority of the time with 3, unless he has very good defense, and sits nearly all the time with 2. I don't think it specifies a # of diamonds because most of the time their diamond length is tied to your spade length, so partner going off of your fit in spades will -usually- be a reasonable guide as to whether or not to defend.

At IMPs, this is a little more complicated, since we aren't ever doubling them for -1, and thus can't really pass the X just because we don't have a spade fit. I think I agree that the X should be takeout, showing short (2 or fewer) diamonds and a maximum non-invite. There are two unbid suits that we could be playing in, and this also allows you to nail them when opener has a stack (although I actually play opener's X as penalty at the 3-level too, but surely most of the time he doesn't have it down in hand so can't X on his own). Plus, it's really hard for responder to X for penalty anyway, since he's under the diamonds, and he doesn't know the degree of spade fit.

[andy_h]

655321, on May 17 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

For me this is non-penalty, so perhaps 5314 or similar. (Would 5323 want to bid? Would 5413 have bid Stayman instead of transferring?)    Perhaps 7-8 HCP. Thinks that defending 3♦ undoubled is unlikely to be our best spot.
Opener can pass, bid a new suit, bid 3 or 4 spades according to his hand.

I think opener's immediate double of 3♦ is penalties, but this would be very rare because responder may have a yarborough - for opener to double he would pretty much need to have 3♦ beaten in his own hand.

I think I fit with this as well.

[helene_t]

Agree with BenLessard.I think two diamonds are enough.

[Trinidad]

Agree with Helene,

Rik

[jdonn]

I think 5323 7 count is perfect, but I have to admit I might do it with 1 even 3 diamonds, I mean if I want to compete with 5 spades there is no other way so what choice do I have? So I guess I'd say it's something between balanced and takeout.

[Winstonm]

I would think most players would describe this as a "do something intelligent" double, i.e., they hold too much to pass but no clear direction.

But I believe you are right that this is not much of an agreement.

I think we might have a reasonable definition if we simply refine the definition to mean this: I hold just shy of a game try and my cards are predominently in quick tricks. Something like Axxxx, xxx, xxx, Kx might be in order.

Maybe that is the key - a double hear says my hand holds 1 1/2 quick tricks for defensive purposes - do something intelligent with that information.

[pclayton]

ATxxx xxx Kxx xx is perfect

ATxxx xx xx Kxxx is OK

Axxxx Kxx x xxxx is take your medicine.