[glen]

ACBL Speedball.

Declarer has two cards left, trump ace and high card in another suit.

Claims last two tricks, no explain.

Defenders reject, since one outstanding trump. Declarer continues with trump ace. Defenders refuse to continue to play, and get TD to adjust to only 1 of last 2 tricks to declarer.

Agree with TD decision?

How about if a defender, when rejecting, states openly "I have a trump"

About claims (Law 70 - 1997):

Quote

C ) There Is an Outstanding Trump
When a trump remains in one of the opponents’ hands, the Director shall award a trick or tricks to the opponents if:
  
1. Failed to Mention Trump
  claimer made no statement about that trump, and 
  
2. Was Probably Unaware of Trump
  it is at all likely that claimer at the time of his claim was unaware that a trump remained in an opponent’s hand, and 
  
3. Could Lose a Trick to the Trump
  a trick could be lost to that trump by any normal play.

...

From the the purposes of Laws 69, 70, and 71 , "normal" includes play that would be careless or inferior for the class of player involved but not irrational.

[blackshoe]

Whether it is "at all likely that claimer at the time of his claim was unaware that a trump remained in an opponent's hand" is a matter for TD judgement. The TD should investigate; it is not clear here whether he did or not, but if he did, I would not presume to disagree with his judgement.

[mike777]

I agree it is best if only one trump out to pull it or state you are pulling the one trump.
OTOH I think claiming with a bunch of trumps out and not saying pulling trumps is ok, say at trick two or trick one.

[Gerben42]

I would give declarer the benefit of the doubt, it's illogical not to play the trump Ace first.

My favorite way to save time when the hand is "draw trumps, and the rest" is to put down the first trump to announce "I am drawing trumps" before pressing the claim button.

[jtfanclub]

Gerben42, on May 15 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

I would give declarer the benefit of the doubt, it's illogical not to play the trump Ace first.

Agreed.

It's not just inferior to to play the trump first, it's stupid at any level. What would be the point?

[Cascade]

Gerben42, on May 16 2008, 07:55 AM, said:

I would give declarer the benefit of the doubt, it's illogical not to play the trump Ace first.

Disagree.

The standard is careless or inferior but not irrational.

I will accept that it is irrational in the two card ending to not draw trump if you know there is a trump out but believe it is merely careless not to do so if you have forgotten about a trump. Therefore if it is "at all likely" that you have forgotten about the trump I will give a trick to your opponents.

I have seen many hands where someone ruffed when declarer could have drawn trumps that were known to be out but carelessly did not. I am not giving declarer the benefit of the doubt when it is "at all likely" that he was unaware of the trump.

I think the standard "at all likely" is quite low. So that much more often than not if you fail to mention trumps you will lose a trick.

It costs so little to show that you know what is going on by stating "drawing trump" or similar with your claim if that is your intention.

[Echognome]

As others have alluded to, it just depends on the circumstances. If declarer started drawing trumps and saw that they split, then claimed, it'd be pretty petty not to award him the rest of the tricks.

Impossible to say without a further description or an investigation at the time.

[matmat]

Gerben42, on May 15 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

My favorite way to save time when the hand is "draw trumps, and the rest" is to put down the first trump to announce "I am drawing trumps" before pressing the claim button.

yes, but maybe you don't remember how many rounds of trumps to draw.

anyway... and people wonder why some find tournaments (live or online) annoying. it's no fun playing against idiot opps with no common sense whatsoever.

[Cascade]

matmat, on May 16 2008, 10:24 AM, said:

Gerben42, on May 15 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

My favorite way to save time when the hand is "draw trumps, and the rest" is to put down the first trump to announce "I am drawing trumps" before pressing the claim button.

yes, but maybe you don't remember how many rounds of trumps to draw.

anyway... and people wonder why some find tournaments (live or online) annoying. it's no fun playing against idiot opps with no common sense whatsoever.

Who are you referring to:

the idiots who do not accept a claim without a statement

or

the idiots who claim and expect the opponents to work out how they are going to play the hand.

Frankly i think the second behaviour described above borders on rudeness.

[matmat]

Cascade, on May 15 2008, 06:16 PM, said:

Who are you referring to:

sort of choice 3, the idiots who use the letter of the law to get a good result, despite the very high likelihood that they do not deserve it.

[glen]

Thanks for everybody's comments on this.

Due to the time pressures of speedballs, I would guess that over 90% of the claims I see during these tournaments are without any further description. If I don't think the claim is worthy, I reject it and play continues. This is best from a speed point of view, and does not require the limited resources of the TD pool.

It seems to me if I were to reject a claim and stop play, following the laws of bridge (Law 68 D "After any claim or concession, play ceases. All play subsequent to a claim or concession shall be voided by the Director" - BBO software does not follow this for claims) to await the TD, then this approach is not viable to speedballs. Certainly at the table in this case we had to wait for the TD, and then the TD had no time to invest in any questioning of declarer.

Thus I believe it should become policy, for speedballs, that if somebody does not like a claim, they reject it, and play either continues or a re-claim is made providing details on the claim. The rejection of the claim can be done for speed reasons, where the person rejecting it is not certain of the final outcome without considerable thought and wishes for the play to continue to see what is going on.

The "letter of the law" was designed for live bridge, and for online bridge, TDs should give allowance to how the game is played on computers, especially given the BBO software is (rightly imo) ignoring Law 68D. Thus claims online should not stop all play.

[mike777]

The problem comes up when you reject a claim and suggests a certain line of play to declarer.

Or when opp reject easy claims that eat up time for other hands.

[jtfanclub]

Cascade, on May 15 2008, 06:16 PM, said:

Who are you referring to:

the idiots who do not accept a claim without a statement

or

the idiots who claim and expect the opponents to work out how they are going to play the hand.

Frankly i think the second behaviour described above borders on rudeness.

With two cards left? With the hand on lead having the high trump and a high non-trump?

How about if I claim with one card left? Am I still being insulting when I claim without explaining how my last card is going to win the trick?

Can't we assume a very basic knowledge of bridge when we claim? I think that's safer than assuming a very basic knowledge of English.

[Trinidad]

jtfanclub, on May 16 2008, 09:15 AM, said:

Cascade, on May 15 2008, 06:16 PM, said:

Who are you referring to:

the idiots who do not accept a claim without a statement

or

the idiots who claim and expect the opponents to work out how they are going to play the hand.

Frankly i think the second behaviour described above borders on rudeness.

With two cards left? With the hand on lead having the high trump and a high non-trump?

How about if I claim with one card left? Am I still being insulting when I claim without explaining how my last card is going to win the trick?

Can't we assume a very basic knowledge of bridge when we claim? I think that's safer than assuming a very basic knowledge of English.

The problem here is that there were only two tricks left.

If declarer claims at trick two or three (e.g. after seeing trumps break), I would normally award the claim without any problem, potentially with six trumps still out. This goes for Speedball games, but also in face to face games when there is time pressure.

In this case, declarer is claiming in trick 12! How much time can he possibly save by claiming? He could have played it out in the same time. And just in case an opponent starts to think in trick 12, declarer can still hit the claim button.

Rik

[1eyedjack]

I have played in clocked events where you have to get a claim in to protect against both sides getting average minus. Often there is not time to put in a detailed explanation of how to play the hand - you just have to rely on the goodwill of both parties to be sensible about it.

There are a lot of areas where goodwill is desirable and for the most part granted. Without it you may gain a few placing points but lose a lot of friends.