[Echognome]

Had the following bidding sequence last night and there were several options for my own hand. I had a difficult time thinking of what each of these bids would show, so asking for your opinion as to what an example hand for each of these sequences would look like:

The auction starts:

Pass - (1♠) - Pass - (Pass)
Dbl - (Pass) - 2♥ - (2♠)
Pass - (Pass) - ?

Give example hands for the following subsequent calls:

1) Double

2) 2NT

3) 3♣ or 3♦

4) 3♥

[kenrexford]

Interesting question.

I'm not sure what each call should show by definition of general opinion or accepted standard, if there is such a thing.

However, my gut tells me that this should theoretically be:

3♣/3♦ = longer in minor
2NT = equal minor/major, unspecified minor
3♥ = to play
X = optional

[jtfanclub]

IMO, 2NT should be meaningless. One hand has passed and reopened with a double, the other showed minimum strength.

If the doubler wasn't a passed hand, I'd take X to show a minimum hand with a spade stopper and a 6 card suit, such as QJT QJT987 87 87. Quite reasonable for partner to be afraid of moving on.

I would interpret 3♣ and 3♦ as 5-5 and 3♥ as a 6 card suit.

[awm]

1) X Penalty. Typically four good spades (usually prefer five to sit for a one-level penalty double).

2) 2NT natural, normally four hearts only and a single spade stopper. With two spade stoppers, prefer double; with five hearts would rebid them. Partner can pass or correct to 3♥ with four or try a five-card minor of his own. Note that this is an awkward hand type because jumping to 3♥ on only four is unappealing and bidding 2NT with a possible eight-card heart fit and only one spade stopper is also not great -- responder could easily have something like 11 hcp on this sequence.

3) 3m natural, only four hearts. Could be four cards in the minor especially if fairly short in spades himself (i.e. 2434 with moderate values would bid 3♣ here). Note that partner's takeout double should almost guarantee holding four cards in one suit or the other, so this is not all that dangerous here (and opponents look to have 8+♠ too).

4) At least five hearts, occasionally six. Wasn't good enough for 3♥ right away, which requires a lot less on a six-bagger, so if it's 6♥ then a pretty lousy hand.

[mikeh]

awm, on May 14 2008, 05:51 PM, said:

1) X Penalty. Typically four good spades (usually prefer five to sit for a one-level penalty double).

2) 2NT natural, normally four hearts only and a single spade stopper. With two spade stoppers, prefer double; with five hearts would rebid them. Partner can pass or correct to 3♥ with four or try a five-card minor of his own. Note that this is an awkward hand type because jumping to 3♥ on only four is unappealing and bidding 2NT with a possible eight-card heart fit and only one spade stopper is also not great -- responder could easily have something like 11 hcp on this sequence.

3) 3m natural, only four hearts. Could be four cards in the minor especially if fairly short in spades himself (i.e. 2434 with moderate values would bid 3♣ here). Note that partner's takeout double should almost guarantee holding four cards in one suit or the other, so this is not all that dangerous here (and opponents look to have 8+♠ too).

4) At least five hearts, occasionally six. Wasn't good enough for 3♥ right away, which requires a lot less on a six-bagger, so if it's 6♥ then a pretty lousy hand.

I agree with all of these except for the interpretation of 2N.

I would frankly prefer a DNE or a conventional agreement that allowed us to distinguish between 4 hearts and a longer minor or 5 hearts and a 4+ minor.... bid 2N to announce a long minor (partner bids 3♣ p/c with fewer than 4 hearts) and 3minor to announce 5 hearts and a 4card minor)

But absent such agreement (and I just made it up so I don't know if anyone would ever play it), 2N should, imo, be 2 stoppers.... AQx is an example, but not willing to have bid any number of notrump last time. I have a very, very difficult time picturing a hand on which it makes any sense to make this bid with 2 stoppers, and it seems impossible with only one.

[Winstonm]

2N should be natural and an attempt to play at the 2-level with a double stop.
AQx, Kxxx, Jx, Kxxx looks about right to me.

Double should be cooperative with poor hearts: KJ9x, xxxx, Kx, AJx

3C/3D should be 4/4 or 4/5

3H should be 5+

[kenrexford]

A running recap:

What does 2NT show:

1 vote for "equal length in hearts and a minor"
1 vote for "meaningless"
1 vote for natural with one stopper
2 votes for natural with two stoppers
1 longing that this show hearts and a longer minor

What do 3♣/3♦ show?

1 vote for hearts and a longer minor (the longed for meaning for 2NT, hinting at the same thinking but reversing 2NT/3minor meanings)
2 votes for 4 hearts and could-be-4-card minor (one of which is modified if the longed-for 2NT canape is used)
1 vote for a tendency canape (tends to be a longer minor)
1 vote for 5-5

What does X show?

2 votes for penalty
2 votes for cooperative
1 vote for what it would be if the auction was completely different

What does 3♥ show?

1 vote for "to play"
2 votes for 5 hearts, rarely 6
1 vote for 5+ hearts
1 vote for 6-card hearts

[Winstonm]

It's unanimous, then....we are fucking clueless!

[jdonn]

Double = optional/values, something like 3433 7-8 count.
2NT = by default for me, choice of suits. Thus 4 hearts and 4 of a minor. Thus I am forced to admit I play baron
3m = 5+ with 4 hearts. Oddly enough this one is the most obvious regardless of how you interpret double and 2NT.
3♥ = something we can all agree on.

[inquiry]

I like (prefer?) jdonn's treatment. So add my votes for those choices.

[andy_h]

kenrexford, on May 15 2008, 08:34 AM, said:

Interesting question.

I'm not sure what each call should show by definition of general opinion or accepted standard, if there is such a thing.

However, my gut tells me that this should theoretically be:

3♣/3♦ = longer in minor
2NT = equal minor/major, unspecified minor
3♥ = to play
X = optional

Sounds about right

[cherdano]

I agree with Ken and Josh and Ben and Andy!

[gnasher]

In this auction, I can't see any benefit in using 2NT to distinguish between 4♥-4m and 4♥-5m. In either case, if the doubler has four hearts you're going to play in hearts; if he has only three you're going to play in advancer's second suit. Or is the idea that with x4x4 opposite 2353 you can get to 3♦?

A disadvantage of bidding 2NT is that responder may bid 3♠ over it, leaving the doubler to guess what advancer's second suit is.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on May 15 2008, 02:22 AM, said:

In this auction, I can't see any benefit in using 2NT to distinguish between 4♥-4m and 4♥-5m. In either case, if the doubler has four hearts you're going to play in hearts; if he has only three you're going to play in advancer's second suit.

That's not true. If he is 4-4 in your suits and you show a longer minor why should he go back to hearts?

[gnasher]

jdonn, on May 15 2008, 08:38 AM, said:

That's not true. If he is 4-4 in your suits and you show a longer minor why should he go back to hearts?

I hadn't considered that possibility.

If you weren't able to distinguish between 4-4 and 4-5, a doubler with 4-4 would choose to play in the minor, because it might be longer. So what you're actually gaining is that with 4-4 opposite 4-4 the doubler can choose which suit to play in?

[helene_t]

X = 44(32), ie "optional".
2N = 1444
3m = 4-4 hearts and m may be enough. Otherwise m is longer.
3H = 5-card.

[hotShot]

The only type of hand that would pass 1♠ and now bid again has to have 4+♠'s and opening strength.
So I would take:
dbl = penalty
2NT= to play
3m=4♠,3(-4)♥, 5m(probably weak suit)
3♥=4♠,4-5♥ maybe a little extra, non forcing

[gnasher]

hotShot, on May 15 2008, 11:56 AM, said:

The only type of hand that would pass 1♠ and now bid again has to have 4+♠'s and opening strength.

That seems a rather extreme view. What would you do with xxx AQ10x x Kxxxx ?

[brianshark]

3♣/3♦ = 5+ with 4 ♥s
2NT = no idea
3♥ = to play
X = penalties

[hotShot]

gnasher, on May 15 2008, 01:38 PM, said:

hotShot, on May 15 2008, 11:56 AM, said:

The only type of hand that would pass 1♠ and now bid again has to have 4+♠'s and opening strength.

That seems a rather extreme view. What would you do with xxx AQ10x x Kxxxx ?

Partner is a passed hand, why should I bid over 2♠ with 9 HCP?
I think that bidding on has to show more than that.

And before you ask with xxx AQ10x x KQJxx I would have bid over 1♠.