[manudude03]

Scoring: MP

1♥-1NT-2♦-3♣
P- P- 3♠- P
4♠-X-AP.

---

If it matters, NS playing basic Acol with 3 weak 2s, 4cM and 12-14 nt. EW same but playing Benji Acol (2C opener is a strong 2 in a major or 21-22 balanced, while 2D opener is basically a 2C opener in SAYC, 2M still weak).

Comments on the bidding for all 4 players? (I was North FWIW). I thought 3C was forcing so was surprised when it got passed.

A few things in particular:

Agree with South's opening bid?
If not, West opens 1C, what's your call as North?
Is 3C forcing and if so what do you bid with the West hand?
3S balance, crazy or justified?
South worth the raise to 4S?
Would you double with West's hand?
Any other comments?


Final result was 4S X +1 (West decided that her last trump was worth more than the crown jewels and hadn't cashed their club before). There were something like 5 different contracts in a field of 7.5 tables, so food for thought I decided. Even that score wasn't a top, pretty sure it got second top though.

[the hog]

manudude03, on May 12 2008, 10:48 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

1♥-1NT-2♦-3♣
P- P- 3♠- P
4♠-X-AP.

---

If it matters, NS playing basic Acol with 3 weak 2s, 4cM and 12-14 nt. EW same but playing Benji Acol (2C opener is a strong 2 in a major or 21-22 balanced, while 2D opener is basically a 2C opener in SAYC, 2M still weak).

Comments on the bidding for all 4 players? (I was North FWIW). I thought 3C was forcing so was surprised when it got passed.

A few things in particular:

Agree with South's opening bid?
If not, West opens 1C, what's your call as North?
Is 3C forcing and if so what do you bid with the West hand?
3S balance, crazy or justified?
South worth the raise to 4S?
Would you double with West's hand?
Any other comments?


Final result was 4S X +1 (West decided that her last trump was worth more than the crown jewels and hadn't cashed their club before). There were something like 5 different contracts in a field of 7.5 tables, so food for thought I decided. Even that score wasn't a top, pretty sure it got second top though.

I agree with the opening.
3C should be forcing
I would bid 3S with Nths hand as the auction went.
I would raise to 4S on the Sth cards as the 4 card support and 3 card D suport, plus 2 bullets are a goldmine.
I would bid 5C, and not X as West. West seriously wants to x when he heard his pd announce a C suit? How many Cs does he think he is going to take?

[Free]

Completely agree with Ron!

[jtfanclub]

I don't play the 3♣ there as forcing. With a GF hand with clubs, we double the diamond (for takeout), then bid 3♣. Especially when the 1NT is an overcall, it's far more likely that you'll have an invitational hand with a minor than a GF hand that needs to show the minor.

So we would go:

1♥ 1NT 2♦ X 3♦ P* P 4♣ P 5♣.

*denies diamonds sufficiently stopped for NT.

Or something similar.

I'm not quite sure if it's even necessary in this instance. With two singletons, I have no interest in playing in 3NT: the K♥ doesn't look like much of an entry, so we either pick up clubs or we aren't going to make 3NT. If partner has as little as Kx in clubs, we'll pick up the suit without loss most of the time.

So I'd just go 1♥ 1NT 2♦ 5♣ PO

Edited to add.

In SAYC, the auction 1NT P 3♣ is nonforcing, showing an invitational hand with clubs. So while I've had directors disagree with me, I say the default meaning of 1NT (anything) 3♣ is nonforcing if you have 'systems off' checked over (anything).

[CSGibson]

jtfanclub, on May 12 2008, 06:12 AM, said:

In SAYC, the auction 1NT P 3♣ is nonforcing, showing an invitational hand with clubs. So while I've had directors disagree with me, I say the default meaning of 1NT (anything) 3♣ is nonforcing if you have 'systems off' checked over (anything).

disagree with your default meaning of 1NT P 3C, that's a common agreement, but not default in SAYC. Agree with the directors; playing lebensohl, you can bid 2NT to get to 3 clubs to play, and double then 3 clubs for an invitational hand. 3 clubs direct is default forcing, just like 3 hearts direct would be over 2 spade interference.

[jtfanclub]

CSGibson, on May 12 2008, 09:26 AM, said:

disagree with your default meaning of 1NT P 3C, that's a common agreement, but not default in SAYC.

That is not a 'common agreement'. It's official.

http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/...gle%20pages.pdf

Other Responses to 1NT:

1NT - 3♣, 3♦ a 6 card or longer suit and invitational to 3NT.

Quote

Agree with the directors; playing lebensohl, you can bid 2NT to get to 3 clubs to play, and double then 3 clubs for an invitational hand.  3 clubs direct is default forcing, just like 3 hearts direct would be over 2 spade interference.

You think the *default* is Lebensohl?

So when the auction goes 1NT (2♥) 2NT, you alert it if 2NT is non-forcing with invitational strength and at least half a heart stopper, and you don't alert it if it's a relay to 3♣?

3♥ is forcing because 1NT-P-3♥ is forcing in SAYC. Systems off should mean systems off. It should not mean Lebensohl. If you make a call that's part of Lebensohl, and I don't just mean 2NT, then you should alert it.

[ArtK78]

jtfanclub, on May 12 2008, 09:41 AM, said:

Quote

Agree with the directors; playing lebensohl, you can bid 2NT to get to 3 clubs to play, and double then 3 clubs for an invitational hand.  3 clubs direct is default forcing, just like 3 hearts direct would be over 2 spade interference.

You think the *default* is Lebensohl?

So when the auction goes 1NT (2♥) 2NT, you alert it if 2NT is non-forcing with invitational strength and at least half a heart stopper, and you don't alert it if it's a relay to 3♣?

3♥ is forcing because 1NT-P-3♥ is forcing in SAYC. Systems off should mean systems off. It should not mean Lebensohl. If you make a call that's part of Lebensohl, and I don't just mean 2NT, then you should alert it.

The issue is not whether a bid is alertable. The issue is whether the agreement is "normal" or "unusual."

In this day and age, Lebensohl is the default agreement among most tournament players. I would venture to guess that 2NT natural and invitational in competition is an unusual agreement among all but novice players.

Nevertheless, 2NT natural and invitation is not alertable (comes under the heading of "Natural calls not specifically noted" in the ACBL Alert Chart - no alert), and 2NT Lebensohl is alertable (comes under the heading of "All other conventional and/or artificial bids" in the ACBL Alert Chart - alert).

As for other methods used for 2NT in competition, I am sure there are many who play Reverse Lebensohl, Rubensohl, or something else. As with Lebensohl, all of these 2NT calls are alertable.

As for your last point, about 1NT-(P)-3♥ being forcing in SAYC, I assume you are comparing that to an auction 1NT-(2x)-3♥, where the opponents have overcalled 2 of something (other than hearts). If the "standard" meaning of 3♥ is forcing and the partnership has agreed that 3♥ in this sequence is forcing, it is not alertable. That is true no matter what method the partnership is playing over interference. The ACBL definition for a call that is not alertable is a natural call with about the expected shape and strength for the call. 3-level natural responses to a notrump opening bid "whether a jump or not" are specifically listed among the responses to a 1NT opening that are not alertable. I assume by "whether a jump or not" is not a reference to bids made in competition but rather a natural 3-level response to a 2NT opening bid. Nevertheless, if the 3 level suit bid in competition is natural and is roughly equivalent to a 3 level suit bid not in competition, it is clear that there is no alert. If the 3 level suit bid has some meaning that is "highly unusual strength, shape, etc.," then it is alertable.

[Apollo81]

West got what he deserved for his ridiculous double of 4♠. Gee, maybe they're balancing after I've passed a forcing bid for a reason!

[manudude03]

I took a note of the contracts when I was at the club earlier (it was 8.5 tables and not 7.5 as I originally said). Arranged by best score for NS.

4H X -5 by East (+1400)
4S X +1 by North (+690)
6C -2 by East (+200)
4D = by North (+130)
3D +1 by North (+130)
5D -1 by North (-50) three times.

The double didn't affect anything because of the scoring. It was a bit of a surprise at the time when I entered the score on Bridgemate and it only came back as 67%.

[Fluffy]

3♣ just depends on the methods, double is ridicoulous.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 not really, but this may just mean, that I forgot, how an Acol
opener looks like

#2 4D

#3 3C is forcing, if you want to bid NF, agree to play
Lebensohl or something similar
After 3C bid 5C, ... or 3NT (I forgot, that it is possible
to ask for a diamond stopper).

#4 3S is ok, over a NF 3C

#5 4S is ok, p showed 65

#6 tough decision, 5C is a long way, and if I believed
3C NF, ... maybe

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

manudude03, on May 12 2008, 05:49 PM, said:

I took a note of the contracts when I was at the club earlier (it was 8.5 tables and not 7.5 as I originally said). Arranged by best score for NS.

4H X -5 by East (+1400)
4S X +1 by North (+690)
6C -2 by East (+200)
4D = by North (+130)
3D +1 by North (+130)
5D -1 by North (-50) three times.

The double didn't affect anything because of the scoring. It was a bit of a surprise at the time when I entered the score on Bridgemate and it only came back as 67%.

it is a wild hand, i.e. anything can happen,
surviving such a board with Avg+ is not bad.

With kind regards
Marlowe