[DrTodd13]

Scoring: MP

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Playing strong club, 15+.

Bidding proceeds 1♠-2♣-2♥-2♠-3♥-pass. Rate the goodness/badness of each call.

[jtfanclub]

Kickass.

Am I supposed to be worried that they missed a game with 22 hcp, no 9 card fit, and no singletons in the short hand? Boo hoo. North even has a completely worthless queen of diamonds.

Every bid was dead on.

[DrTodd13]

If this hand isn't enough then what north hand consistent with 2♣ followed by 2♠ would ever accept a 3♥ invite? Put the ♦Q in a major instead?

[han]

How is it possible to answer this question without knowing what system you play? 1C as 15+ is not enough.

[cherdano]

How can 3♥ be non-forcing?

[DrTodd13]

cherdano, on May 9 2008, 01:11 PM, said:

How can 3♥ be non-forcing?

How can it be forcing when both players are limited?

[DrTodd13]

han, on May 9 2008, 01:01 PM, said:

How is it possible to answer this question without knowing what system you play? 1C as 15+ is not enough.

More details on the system. We open all unbalanced 11 counts and all balanced 12 counts. Responses to major openings are SAYC style, drury is available.

[ArtK78]

If 2♣ on the North hand is permissible, then I can understand how 3♥ can be nonforcing.

Getting to 3♥ on these cards isn't a disaster. I suspect it is fairly normal.

[jtfanclub]

DrTodd13, on May 9 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

If this hand isn't enough then what north hand consistent with 2♣ followed by 2♠ would ever accept a 3♥ invite? Put the ♦Q in a major instead?

I don't consider 3♥ to be an invite. It just shows a minimum 5-5, which is in fact what South has.

There's several ways to bid a stronger hand with South with different forms of Precision, such as 3♥ the first time if you don't use that as Splinter (ick), or 3♦ as 4th suit forcing over 2♠. I don't think it really matters where the Queen is in the North hand. It's just....under 24 hcp, no singleton in the hand with shorter trumps, and no 9+ card fit. At least the way I learned Precision, if you don't have any of those three, you don't go for game.

Um, Cherdano, the way I play Precision 2♥ isn't forcing!

[DrTodd13]

Yeah, we play 2♥ as minimum non-forcing. 3♥ after 2♣ is 5-5 max, still not forcing.

[cherdano]

DrTodd13, on May 9 2008, 03:15 PM, said:

cherdano, on May 9 2008, 01:11 PM, said:

How can 3♥ be non-forcing?

How can it be forcing when both players are limited?

North showed a 3-card limit raise, and South make a re-game try with 3♥.
Oh no, North showed an invitational hand, and South showed an acceptance with 3♥, offering a choice of games.
Do you play 2♥ as non-forcing?

[DrTodd13]

cherdano, on May 9 2008, 01:29 PM, said:

DrTodd13, on May 9 2008, 03:15 PM, said:

cherdano, on May 9 2008, 01:11 PM, said:

How can 3♥ be non-forcing?

How can it be forcing when both players are limited?

North showed a 3-card limit raise, and South make a re-game try with 3♥.
Oh no, North showed an invitational hand, and South showed an acceptance with 3♥, offering a choice of games.
Do you play 2♥ as non-forcing?

I think a 3-card limit raise would have been 3♠ after 2♠. After 2♥, his only real options are pass, 2♠, and 2N. 2N seems unwise given the ♦ weakness. 2♠ keeps the bidding alive and takes a preference to playing the 5-2 versus the 4-3. We don't play 2♥ as forcing so pass is an option but not the best I think.

[jtfanclub]

DrTodd13, on May 9 2008, 04:34 PM, said:

I think a 3-card limit raise would have been 3♠ after 2♠.

Why even have a 3 card limit raise bid?

If responder has 10 hcp, 2-3 spades, and 5+ clubs, he bids 2♣ and then signs off in 2♠ or passes 2♥. Why admit to the opponents that you actually have a fit?

If responder has 12 hcp, 3 spades, and 5+ clubs, he just bids 4♠ over 1♠. What are you looking for?

If responder has 14+ hcp, 3 spades, and 5+ clubs, now he needs 3♠ over 2♥ to show this hand.

At any rate, I take 2♠ to be signoff. God knows he has the right hand for it.

[han]

If 2H showed a minimum (so 11-13) then it makes some sense to play that 3H is NF. So it seems that south has shown a 11-13 count with 5-5 in the majors. Presumably with a very poor hand south would pass 2S so perhaps that south has shown a 13-count 5-5 hand? Hard to fault south then because that's exactly what he has.

3H at MPs seems fine. You might make 4, you might go down, it seems like a perfectly reasonable spot and a good auction within the system.

While your 2C response is SAYC-like, your follow-ups really aren't (2H NF is very different) so I think you shouldn't describe it as SAYC like. Again, it is not possible to evaluate the auction without knowing the system.

[DrTodd13]

The result was 3♥ making 6 for a near bottom. Most of the field was in 4 making. Are they all insane to be in 4 or is there some wisdom in it that most people here seem to be missing? I don't think that 2/1 or SA is any better at sorting these hands out so I think this is more of a judgement issue rather than a systemic issue.

[jdonn]

I would want to force to game as south given my club holding, but it's tricky since I want to show 5-5 but not bypass 3NT. I guess this does depend on methods to a large extent. It's funny since I think bidding 2♣ instead of 1NT should have helped you get to game when compared to the field.

All that said, I realize game is not amazing, but it seems good enough.

[manudude03]

A lot of people in the club I go to use LTC for their judgement calls, 5 loser opposite the 8 loser says you should be in 5. My guess is that North has to bid it after 3H.

[Mbodell]

Again, hard to tell without knowing the system more but I'd certainly want to treat the south hand like a maximum, not minimum, opener. I think it is much closer to a 1♣ opener than to a pass. The control rich 5-5 in the majors 5 LTC hand is just to good to go quietly. If 2♥ is NF then I think that was a bad bid. If the 2♥ was F1 and the 3♥/2♠ suggests maximum 5-5 then I think that was perfect and it is North's fault for not bidding 4♥. If South has really just showed a minimum 55 hand then North's pass is good.

[blackshoe]

As someone else said, "1♣ 15+" isn't enough. The way I've played forcing club, South would bid 3♥ over 2C. At MPs, North might pass (3♥ is not forcing), at IMPs he'd go.

[Apollo81]

3♥ was semi-forcing (I would call it forcing but opener is limited since its strong club) so responder should clearly raise.