[elwood913]

It's a weak 2 opening this time, your bid.

Scoring: IMP

2♥ - p - p - ??

---

Do you want to bid NT?
If so, are you too strong for 2NT?
If so, doesn't X then 3NT make you cringe a little?
(Does the scoring or vul matter?)

Thanks,
Bill

[the hog]

2NT still for me. If you feel you re too strong for this, why do you think you need to bid 3NT after a x? You can bid 2NT over 2S; I also assume you play leb, so if pd bids 3? 3NT should be a make.

[cherdano]

2N, and this is not a maximum, not even close.

[han]

Agree with cherdano!

[rogerclee]

2NT is clear, this is closer to being a minimum than a maximum.

It sounds like you play "balancing NT overcalls" still in this position. This is not a good agreement, and I would suggest you stop playing them immediately.

[neilkaz]

cherdano, on May 6 2008, 01:01 AM, said:

2N, and this is not a maximum, not even close.

Max for me..but we don't hang PD for having mediocre cards ! so 2NT

If PD balances 3NT here noting the ace can be held up til 3rd round I won't say a word since..

2NT = 5.6
3NT = 4.4

Anything else = ZERO out of 10 for me

[elwood913]

cherdano, on May 6 2008, 01:01 AM, said:

2N, and this is not a maximum, not even close.

Ok, I got this loud and clear

Quote

It sounds like you play "balancing NT overcalls" still in this position. This is not a good agreement, and I would suggest you stop playing them immediately.

I did think I was max+ because I was in the balancing seat. But it seems that I shouldn't be applying that principle "in this position". Why not--what position am I in? Because it is balancing over a weak 2? Specifically because it is a balancing NT bid over a weak 2?
(To put the question another way, I would lower the point count I needed in the balancing seat for 1♥ p p 1NT , why not for 2♥ p p 2NT?)

[the hog]

14-17 is not an uncommonly played range.

[elwood913]

The_Hog, on May 6 2008, 01:50 AM, said:

14-17 is not an uncommonly played range.

Maybe I should have started with what I thought I needed for the bid. In the direct seat for (2♥)-2NT we'd expect something like 16-19. So in balancing I'd think I could make the bid with about 3 points less so 13-16. (Just like in balancing I'd bid (1♥)-p-p-1NT with something like 11-14 or 12-15.) Sounds like you're upping the 2NT balancing bid a tad to 14-17, Hog. Fine, but then isn't this 16hcp hand with 3 aces and a 5-card suit at least at the max of that range?

Seems the consensus is that it's nowhere near the max so there must be something else at work here. Do you not use a lower range when balancing 2NT over a weak 2, like you do when it's 1NT over one of a suit? Or do I devalue my hand because I think I'm going to get clobbered in ♥'s? Or do I have the requirement for a direct (2♥)-2NT wrong?

[rogerclee]

elwood913, on May 6 2008, 12:32 AM, said:

So in balancing I'd think I could make the bid with about 3 points less so 13-16. (Just like in balancing I'd bid (1♥)-p-p-1NT with something like 11-14 or 12-15.

1) It is much harder to make 2NT than 1NT.
2) It is reasonably safe to balance at the 1-level because partner is marked with some values, since RHO is supposedly broke. When you balance at the 2-level, RHO could have a misfitting 17-count.

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on May 6 2008, 06:50 AM, said:

14-17 is not an uncommonly played range.

It is in fact a very common range, especially if opener is a hog (no pun intended )

[P_Marlowe]

elwood913, on May 6 2008, 12:38 AM, said:

It's a weak 2 opening this time, your bid.

Scoring: IMP

2♥ - p - p - ??

---

Do you want to bid NT?
If so, are you too strong for 2NT?
If so, doesn't X then 3NT make you cringe a little?
(Does the scoring or vul matter?)

Thanks,
Bill

#1 yes
#2 no

The scoring and vulnerability does not matter.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

elwood913, on May 6 2008, 02:32 AM, said:

<snip>
Maybe I should have started with what I thought I needed for the bid. In the direct seat for (2♥)-2NT we'd expect something like 16-19.
<snip>

16-19 is too much.

If you play strong NT, just overcall if you
happen to hold one, ... if you think a bad
15 is too bad, increase the requrements,
but only slighly.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: If you happen to play a 16-18 1 NT
opening, than overcall, if you hold one.

[han]

I think at higher levels the balancing principle only applies when you have shortness in their suit. So you might double with a 4-1-4-4 9-count or bid 2S with a 6-1-3-3 8-count. Something you would not do in direct seat of a preempt.

With a balanced hand the range is only a tad lighter than in direct seat.

[awm]

There are several differences between 1♥-P-P and 2♥-P-P that make it logical to play different balancing ranges. Some of these:

(1) 2♥ is a much more descriptive and limited opening bid. This means that your RHO can pass with a much wider range of hands over partner's preempt than he would over partner's 1♥. After 1♥-P-P, RHO never has much of anything and while LHO might have 20 hcp he usually has something like 12-14, so your side most likely has majority of the strength. After 2♥-P-P, RHO could easily have as much as 14-15 hcp with no fit for hearts, and opponents could easily have most of the points (and RHO could easily double you).

(2) 2♥ takes away a lot of your space. Over 1♥-P-P, you have room to jump to 2NT without it being game. If you bid 1NT with a fairly wide range, partner has room to invite over it. If you balance 1♠ or 2m on garbage, partner can invite and you still get to play 2♠ or 3m. None of this is true over 2♥, where partner is going to pretty much have to guess "game or no game" over your balancing call. So you can't make bids with a huge range the way you might over 1♥ (because partner won't know what to do and doesn't have room to investigate) and blasting game with 16 hcp is extremely risky (see 1).

(3) 2♥ shows a lot of hearts. Of course there are some people who often preempt with five card suits, but for most of us 2♥ is usually six and 1♥ is usually five (of course some people also play four card majors). The point is that most of the time after a 2♥ opening showing six, either you or partner will have two or fewer hearts. If you do both have 3+ hearts, often contracts which appear good on the surface will fail on bad breaks. So after 1♥-P-P, if you hold three hearts it is not unlikely partner had a good hand with three hearts also, and you might be on for something. Over 2♥-P-P, if you have three hearts then often (okay not always, but often) partner will have two hearts, and the failure to make a takeout double or otherwise bid with only two hearts implies that partner probably has less than an opening hand. This means you have no real need to balance with 12-14 hcp balanced and three or more hearts, so a balancing 2NT should be more like 15-18.