[Vilgan]

Auction went:
1♦(1) 1♠ 2♥ p
2NT p 3♥ p
4♥ X(2)

Is 3♥ forcing here?

1: 5+ diamonds 11-15 hcp or 14-16 balanced
2: Thunder double

[TylerE]

I don't think so. Would need to know more about system (e.g.: What is 2NT?) to say for sure.

[jtfanclub]

Um, IMHO, you're not playing a standard system here.

One of these has to be game forcing:

SAYC style:
1♦ 1♠ 2♥ p
2NT -p- 3♥ p

or Game Forcing Through Inquiry style:
1♦ 1♠ X P
1NT -P- 2♥

There's nothing wrong with either style...one keeps you low on the GF for slam tries, the other keeps you low on invitational hands so you can quit low.

But if you're playing a non-standard system, this is one of the first things you should agree on.

[FrancesHinden]

Vilgan, on Apr 30 2008, 03:41 PM, said:

Auction went:
1♦(1) 1♠ 2♥ p
2NT p 3♥ p
4♥ X(2)

Is 3♥ forcing here?

1: 5+ diamonds 11-15 hcp or 14-16 balanced
2: Thunder double

No.

If 3H were forcing then you are effectively saying that 2H was game forcing: what was responder supposed to do with an invitational hand with long hearts? It is normal to play double-then-bid-hearts as weak, so that

1D 1S x P
1NT P 2H

shows a sign-off in hearts (maybe xx KJ109xx Qxx xx)

1D 1S 2H P
2NT P 3H

shows an invitational hand with hearts (maybe xx AKJ10xx Qxx xx)

if you have a game force with hearts you either bid 4H or 3S over 2NT depending quite how strong it is.

[hotShot]

I would think it's non forcing, because
opener has a limited hand and
responder could have bid a new suit ♣ now or
bid 2♠ last round to show extra strength.

So I think that 3♥ shows extra length and invitational strength probably based on distribution.

[han]

No.

[mikeh]

3♥ non-forcing. Think about the auction: how else is responder to bid an invitational hand with long hearts? And with a better hand... with no slam interest, he bids 4♥ over 2N and with slam interest he bids an ambiguous yet forcing 3♠ over 2N.

[neilkaz]

mikeh, on Apr 30 2008, 10:27 AM, said:

3♥ non-forcing. Think about the auction: how else is responder to bid an invitational hand with long hearts? And with a better hand... with no slam interest, he bids 4♥ over 2N and with slam interest he bids an ambiguous yet forcing 3♠ over 2N.

Agreed..it believe it would be NF in SAYC so I would expect no difference here. Force to game via other means.

[jtfanclub]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 30 2008, 10:11 AM, said:

If 3H were forcing then you are effectively saying that 2H was game forcing: what was responder supposed to do with an invitational hand with long hearts? It is normal to play double-then-bid-hearts as weak, so that

1D 1S x P
1NT P 2H

shows a sign-off in hearts (maybe xx KJ109xx Qxx xx)

Use

1D 1S x P
1NT P 3H

as invitational with long hearts.

Quote

shows an invitational hand with hearts (maybe xx AKJ10xx Qxx xx)

if you have a game force with hearts you either bid 4H or 3S over 2NT depending quite how strong it is.

I would interpret 3♠ as a stopper ask.

from hotshot:

Quote

would think it's non forcing, because
opener has a limited hand and
responder could have bid a new suit ♣ now or
bid 2♠ last round to show extra strength.

I think what both of you are missing is that if 2♥ is a 1 round force, then 2NT simply shows a balanced 14-16. It does not show a spade stopper, it does not deny a 5 card club suit.

I think 2♠ last round is especially dangerous, since your partner's next decision may be over 4♠. 2♠ has got to show a love of diamonds.

I really don't think you have the space to make 3♥ invitational here, if you don't do game forcing through inquiry.

[jdonn]

Non forcing, the cuebid should specifically be a game forcing heart rebid.

[Vilgan]

K.

I was the 3♥ bidder. Meant it as invitational to 4H or possibly 3NT (only if partner had Hx). Partner thought it was forcing and we got a bit too high.

Just wanted to confirm I hadn't lost my mind. On the flipside though, X followed by 2♥ was probably a better way to bid the hand to have a shot at staying low if necessary.

thx!

[awm]

Isn't this a weak notrump based system though?

I think there is an argument that opener's 2NT rebid shows extras, since he normally has the "strong notrump" hand, and that because of this 3♥ should be forcing?

Certainly in standard bidding (with a strong notrump opening) 3♥ is NF.

[jtfanclub]

awm, on Apr 30 2008, 01:41 PM, said:

Isn't this a weak notrump based system though?

I think there is an argument that opener's 2NT rebid shows extras, since he normally has the "strong notrump" hand, and that because of this 3♥ should be forcing?

Certainly in standard bidding (with a strong notrump opening) 3♥ is NF.

Right. I think people are still answering this like he's playing Standard American, not Precision (I assume this is Precision).

In Standard American, 2NT shows a weak hand. In most forms of Precision, 2NT is not only the strongest possible bid, it's the only strong bid you can make without heart support.

[FrancesHinden]

jtfanclub, on Apr 30 2008, 07:54 PM, said:

awm, on Apr 30 2008, 01:41 PM, said:

Isn't this a weak notrump based system though?

I think there is an argument that opener's 2NT rebid shows extras, since he normally has the "strong notrump" hand, and that because of this 3♥ should be forcing?

Certainly in standard bidding (with a strong notrump opening) 3♥ is NF.

Right. I think people are still answering this like he's playing Standard American, not Precision (I assume this is Precision).

In Standard American, 2NT shows a weak hand. In most forms of Precision, 2NT is not only the strongest possible bid, it's the only strong bid you can make without heart support.

So perhaps we should be asking a different question.
Does 2NT here actually show the strong balanced hand? Or what is opener supposed to bid over 2H with

KQxx
x
AQxxx
Jxx

?

(this is a weak-NT issue that many weak-NTers don't actually know the answer to)

[jtfanclub]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 30 2008, 02:17 PM, said:

(this is a weak-NT issue that many weak-NTers don't actually know the answer to)

3♦, I should seriously hope. Same as 1♦-1♠-1NT shows the strong balanced, not a weak unbalanced hand with hearts.