[rogerclee]

1♦ - (3♣) - P - (P)
3♦ - (P) - 3♠

Does 3♠ exist? Is it forcing? What does it show?

[awm]

Hmm I think it's not forcing. It shows a hand that was too weak to bid over 3♣, but has a lot of spades. With a trap pass of clubs I would virtually always bid 3NT, as this is likely to be better than 4♠ even if we have an eight-card spade fit.

[benlessard]

NF foward going with D tolerance. I like to play that a negative X at the 3 level is showing some real stuff. So passing and bidding 3S to show a weaker hand make sense. With a trap pass ill bid 3Nt.

[whereagles]

I think NF with spades is more likely than F1 with spades + trap pass. Besides, a trap pass can always bid 3♠ over 3♣ anyway...

[gnasher]

On any strong hand with spades I'd have bid 3♠ over 3♣, regardless of my club holding.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Apr 29 2008, 05:42 PM, said:

gnasher, on Apr 29 2008, 05:33 PM, said:

On any strong hand with spades I'd have bid 3♠ over 3♣, regardless of my club holding.

Wow? Even if they can run they don't always (or even usually). I couldn't imagine giving up a huge penalty for a not even sure game. And even if they do run you can just bid spades later. I don't really see the merit to this treatment other than to deprive yourself of some sick penalties.

You might think it sucks, but don't say you can't see the merit when I know you can

Jlall, on Apr 29 2008, 01:17 AM, said:

Yes that means you might well be screwed with like JTxxxxxx xx --- xxx or whatever (ok thats not a realistic hand on the auction but you get my point). You just have to pass and take your lumps in 3D.

[jdonn]

I deleted the first part of this post that I'm sure I would have regretted, although I can mention your reply makes it obvious you missed my point even though you think you didn't. As for my input or a useful contribution, I agree with your opinion and don't have too much to add. The only thing that occurs to me that hasn't been mentioned is that it's normal on many auctions that when forcing and nonforcing are both options but there is only room for one and partner has shown a long suit, forcing usually takes precedence since partner's suit should be playable. I'm equating it to something like 1♦ p 1♠ p 3♦ p 3♠. That is the reasoning that guides my opinion here, since it's not something I remember ever thinking about before.

[awm]

There are a wide range of hands where you have something like 5-8 hcp and 6-7♠. What is your plan with these hands after 1♦-(3♣)? Are you bidding game (either 4♠ direct or 3♠ forcing and then 4♠)? Why is game a good contract with a hand that you'd probably bid as 1♠...2♠ over partner's opening if unobstructed? Or do you double and hope that partner doesn't convert because you have no defense? And what if your suit is hearts?

It seems logical (to me anyway) that you would pass with these sorts of hands. Anything else seems quite likely to end up going down doubled, or defending a cold doubled contract, or having partner overbid you to slam on the occasion that game makes. But over partner's 3♦ rebid (which usually shows a decent hand) you want to bid your major, not just because your hand could take zero tricks in diamonds (correcting the partial) but also because the right partner hand gives you game.

If you want some example hands:

♠KQJTxx
♥xx
♦xx
♣xxx

Could make game opposite something like Ax xxx AKJTxxx x for example.

♠Kx
♥QJTxxxx
♦x
♣xxx

You'll do a lot better in hearts opposite AQx xx AKJxxx xx (3♥ seems cold but 3♦ likely to fail) and if partner has a bit more (say ♥K) you are on for game.

So what's the verdict? Force game with these hands (and it is easy to construct hands where game fails, possibly even doubled by LHO)? Pass throughout the auction? Double and hope that partner doesn't convert or bid the wrong major or try 3NT on a misfit? Personally, I like passing and then bidding 3M over partner's balance (or 4M if partner finds a double). If partner can't balance we might've missed a making partial but I doubt we will miss a game (and at least we're not doubled for a number).

I'll also mention that these hands are ridiculously common hands to hold on this auction -- partner has a long suit, RHO has a long suit, why shouldn't I have a long suit? And given that RHO has a weak three bid (probably around 7-10 hcp) and partner has a bit more than an opening (say 14-17) we have more or less the expected hcp total too!

I'd say this is a way more frequent state of affairs than holding a penalty pass plus a side five card suit.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

it should show clubs, and spade values,
... 3S may not be based on a 4 carder.

And it is certainly forcing.

With kind regards
Marlowe