[hrothgar]

IMPS
Red v Red

You're playing a simple version of Blue Club
1M openings show 4+ cards, might have a longer suit
1M openings are relatively sound

You hold

♠ T2
♥ A9742
♦ AKT8
♣ 72

Here's the auction

1♥ - (P) - 3♥ - (P)
???

Partner's 3♥ raise is an old fashioned limit raise with 4+ card support

Whats your call?

[whereagles]

Dunno if I should bid or pass, so that means bid.

[TimG]

If someone picks the 5th poll option, are they really abstaining?

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

You have a min. opening hand, at least if you open
sound.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gnasher]

Pass. I might have opened T2 A9742 AQT8 72, but not anything weaker, so this is one point above a bare minimum.

[TimG]

I think that one of the poll questions highlights some wrong thinking: "Pass This is damn far from a maximum 1H opening". The question isn't whether the hand is maximum or minimum, but rather whether there is a good expectation of making game opposite a limit raise.

The given hand counts to 6 losers (adjusting for two more aces than queens). A limit raise is typically 8 losers. This means we should bid game.

"gnasher" said:

I might have opened T2 A9742 AQT8 72, but not anything weaker, so this is one point above a bare minimum.

You also would have opened T2 A9742 AK8 T72. Same points but not as good as the actual 2542 hand.

[P_Marlowe]

TimG, on Apr 28 2008, 09:46 AM, said:

I think that one of the poll questions highlights some wrong thinking: "Pass This is damn far from a maximum 1H opening". The question isn't whether the hand is maximum or minimum, but rather whether there is a good expectation of making game opposite a limit raise.

The given hand counts to 6 losers (adjusting for two more aces than queens). A limit raise is typically 8 losers. This means we should bid game.

"gnasher" said:

I might have opened T2 A9742 AQT8 72, but not anything weaker, so this is one point above a bare minimum.

You also would have opened T2 A9742 AK8 T72. Same points but not as good as the actual 2542 hand.

...

What does a limit raise ask?

A limit raise asks opener to have a look at his hand
to decide if he has a min., with which he would decline
the invitation, or if he had a max. with which he would
accept the invitation.

And this means that partner should take into account, how
does a min. opener look like.

I dont mind, if you say the hand can be upgraded to
a 6 looser hand due to controls excess, but than you
upgrade the hand, and this means in effect, you say
the hand could be whole lot worse.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[TimG]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 28 2008, 09:56 AM, said:

What does a limit raise ask?

Maybe it's a minor semantic issue, but I prefer to think "what does a limit raise show?"

[FrancesHinden]

TimG, on Apr 28 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Apr 28 2008, 09:56 AM, said:

What does a limit raise ask?

Maybe it's a minor semantic issue, but I prefer to think "what does a limit raise show?"

This seems to be a circular argument.

A limit raise asks you to bid game if you have a better than minimum opening bid
A limit raise shows a hand where game is making if you have a better than minimum opening bid

"You also would have opened T2 A9742 AK8 T72..."
We have been told that we play "relatively sound" 1M openings, so I doubt whether either this hand or the 2542 10-count would be opening bids.

Anyway, this is a very hard question to answer, because very few of the respondents (including me) are used to playing a 4CM system and hence we aren't used to factoring in the value of the fifth trump in our hand on these auctions. Also, it depends what we call 'sound' 1M opening in the context of a Blue Club system.

[awm]

I'd bid game. Several reasons:

(1) I'd bid game opposite a four-card limit raise in standard methods with this hand. After all, something like KQxx Kxxx xx xxx makes for a fine game at this scoring, and this isn't a limit raise. In fact it is hard to construct ten-eleven point hands with doubleton diamond and four hearts where game is not worth bidding vulnerable at imps. And while partner might not have doubleton diamond, it is the most likely doubleton, and there are hands with three diamonds where game is quite cold like Axx KQxx Qxx xxx too (change either queen to a jack and it still is worth bidding game given the form of scoring).

(2) The opening style means that partner might have five trumps. While there's no guarantee, I assume that opposite the often four-card 1♥ opening partner would not force game with something like 10-11 points and five-card support. If partner has five trumps I really want to be in game; something like Axx Kxxxx xx xxx is an almost cold game (and again this isn't a limit raise).

[cherdano]

Not sure what "relatively sound" means, but compared to a 4432 12-count or a nice 2425 11-count this hand has quite some extras in playing strength opposite a 4-card limit raise. I would bid game.

[TimG]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 28 2008, 10:10 AM, said:

"You also would have opened T2 A9742 AK8 T72..."

We have been told that we play "relatively sound" 1M openings, so I doubt whether this hand would be [an] opening bid.

I'm shocked! This 3 QT hand doesn't qualify as a "relatively sound" opening bid?

[han]

Close call, I'd usually bid game but I don't usually play sounds openings.

I've seen many threads where one partner posts a hand and the other then argues vehemently against the call chosen by the original poster or for the call chosen by himself. Playing with a partner almost as stubborn as myself I know how hard it can be to settle a difference of opinion, but this doesn't seem to be the best way to do it.

Yes, I know this is none of my business.

[jdonn]

I will bid game because I have no clue what is right in this system.

[TimG]

han, on Apr 28 2008, 11:22 AM, said:

Close call, I'd usually bid game but I don't usually play sounds openings.

I've seen many threads where one partner posts a hand and the other then argues vehemently against the call chosen by the original poster or for the call chosen by himself. Playing with a partner almost as stubborn as myself I know how hard it can be to settle a difference of opinion, but this doesn't seem to be the best way to do it.

Yes, I know this is none of my business.

That would be me he's talking about. But, you are wrong about the thread being used to settle a difference of opinion.

[pclayton]

I pass.

Its a minimum, I have no shortness and 7 losers.

[han]

TimG, on Apr 28 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

That would be me he's talking about. But, you are wrong about the thread being used to settle a difference of opinion.

Well, it was more of a general comment because I see it a lot and dislike it. If you arguing a lot against your partner's call on a public forum works well for your partnership then please ignore my comment, it depends a lot on the people involved.

[hrothgar]

han, on Apr 28 2008, 07:43 PM, said:

TimG, on Apr 28 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

That would be me he's talking about.  But, you are wrong about the thread being used to settle a difference of opinion.

Well, it was more of a general comment because I see it a lot and dislike it. If you arguing a lot against your partner's call on a public forum works well for your partnership then please ignore my comment, it depends a lot on the people involved.

Hi Han

For what its worth, the post mortem on this hand was initiated on this end...

I noted that I had no real clue what the right course of action was. I was (and still am) very much torn between Pass and 4♥. I didn't launch this thread to try to bolster support for my decision at the table, rather, I am genuinely hoping to get some more perspective on the hand.

Moreover, if I had trouble with this type of public critique, I probably wouldn't have launched the thread to begin with... (Maybe I've just been through one to many MathWorks design review sessions)

[TimG]

han, on Apr 28 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

TimG, on Apr 28 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

That would be me he's talking about.  But, you are wrong about the thread being used to settle a difference of opinion.

Well, it was more of a general comment because I see it a lot and dislike it. If you arguing a lot against your partner's call on a public forum works well for your partnership then please ignore my comment, it depends a lot on the people involved.

Sorry, Richard, if my comments have been non-constructive or inappropriate.