[kgr]

- Is it correct that Inverted minor is even more useful when playing weak NT? If you bid 1m-3m then partner is either unbalanced or 15+.

[gnasher]

Inverted minors are less useful when playing a weak notrump, for three reasons:

- After 1m-3m you might have a marginal game when opener has a maximum strong notrump, and the jump raise takes away the space you need to investigate.

- There is less preemptive benefit in bidding 1m-3m when opener has 15-17 balanced

- 1m-2m is less useful opposite 15-17 balanced. Because you have enough for game, you don't need the extra space for exploring the correct level.

[hotShot]

Objection!

Playing weak NT your 1m openings will usually have 4 cards in the minor (so you can bid support with 4-cards!) and balanced hands will have more strengths, but there are still a lot weak unbalanced hands around. With these you will still want to preempt. Of cause you need to adapt the upper limit of the 3m response so that game is unlikely opposite a strong balanced hand.

If opener holds 15-17 HCP you don't need to preempt because if partner has 0 HCP opps still got only 25-23 HCP.

You can use the extra space to investigate responders strength. Since the Upper limit of the 3m response had to be reduced, the lower limit of the 2m response is lower. With a minimum responder you can stop in 2NT.

[helene_t]

In a strong NT context, the raise to 3 is a sign-off opposite the 12-14 and gamegoing opposite 18-19.

I a weak NT context, you could play the single raise as 8+.

Then the double raise will come up less frequently. OTOH the single raise is simpler to handle because it's obvious that 3N by opener now shows 17-19 or such. The strong notrumpers cannot have 3NT showing either 14 or 18-19 (at least not if responder is unpassed)

[jdonn]

helene_t, on Apr 26 2008, 12:46 PM, said:

In a strong NT context, the raise to 3 is a sign-off opposite the 12-14 and gamegoing opposite 18-19.

This is far from clear. Many (most?) play the raise to 3 is weaker and demands a pass by 18-19 balanced. It's an important point to discuss.

[pclayton]

Love IM playing weak NT, with one caveat that has nothing to do with weak NT's.

As gnasher says, the jump raise is usually very wide ranging, say 0-8 or 0-9. This is unplayable. I like to split the range into 'mixed' and 'very weak' using a 2S call and 3m.

When opener has a 'known' minor or extras, jamming the auction works well. The single raise also can be effective as you dont have the weak NT opposite a 10 count and trying to figure out if 2N or 3m is right when both can exceed the limit of the hand.

[gnasher]

hotShot, on Apr 26 2008, 06:16 PM, said:

Playing weak NT your 1m openings will usually have 4 cards in the minor

Really? What do you do with a balanced 15-count without a four-card minor?

[Gerben42]

Quote

As gnasher says, the jump raise is usually very wide ranging, say 0-8 or 0-9. This is unplayable. I like to split the range into 'mixed' and 'very weak' using a 2S call and 3m.

This is unplayable whatever your NT range is.

Anyway, I think inverted minors are a must to play because you are forced to make up suits with a strong hand and a fit otherwise. So it's 100% useful whatever your NT range.

What IS true is that they are easier to play with a weak NT. After 1♦ - 2♦, you know that partner is unbalanced or GF. Playing a strong NT partner must use 2NT and 3NT for the min. and max. weak NT hand, or you play that 2NT is 12 - 14 and responder should make the last mistake or something like that...

As for 1m - 3m, that should be passed with a 15 - 17 NT. The "middle strength" hand type should have another bid, for example 1♦ - 3♣.

18 - 19 is a problem whatever your NT range is.

[skjaeran]

jdonn, on Apr 26 2008, 08:02 PM, said:

helene_t, on Apr 26 2008, 12:46 PM, said:

In a strong NT context, the raise to 3 is a sign-off opposite the 12-14 and gamegoing opposite 18-19.

This is far from clear. Many (most?) play the raise to 3 is weaker and demands a pass by 18-19 balanced. It's an important point to discuss.

Agree. Most experts here play that a normal 18-19NT should pass 1m-3m. You need something extraorindinary to bid 3NT.

This really is something you need to discuss.

[gnasher]

Gerben42, on Apr 26 2008, 08:09 PM, said:

Anyway, I think inverted minors are a must to play because you are forced to make up suits with a strong hand and a fit otherwise. So it's 100% useful whatever your NT range.

I think "a must" is an overstatement. It's quite playable to use 2NT as a game-forcing raise, with simple and jump raises as limit bids. That is, after all, what half the world does after a major-suit opening.

Not that I think this particularly relevant. The question was not "Are inverted minors useful when playing a weak notrump?", but "Is it correct that Inverted minor is even more useful when playing weak NT?"

[kgr]

Follow up:
I play strong NT and
After 1m-2m:
- 2NT = 18-19 balanced
- 3NT= 14
- 3C = unbalanced min
- 2D = balanced min or strong with D (then follow with 2NT is weak)
....
How would you change this with Weak NT?

[whereagles]

hotShot, on Apr 26 2008, 05:16 PM, said:

Playing weak NT your 1m openings will usually have 4 cards in the minor (so you can bid support with 4-cards!)

Actually, you will usually have FIVE cards, so pard can support with THREE cards, as he does for majors

Opener having 4 cards and a min is actually an exception for 4441s.

[Vilgan]

Gerben42, on Apr 26 2008, 02:09 PM, said:

Anyway, I think inverted minors are a must to play because you are forced to make up suits with a strong hand and a fit otherwise. So it's 100% useful whatever your NT range.

Eh? How so. Criss cross is one (of several) nice easy ways to show a GF w/ support for openers minor. Could also do 2 NT as someone else suggested. I personally think a jump shift to the other minor has less opportunity cost though as I like 2 NT being natural there.

[ASkolnick]

Or if you give up weak and fit showing jumps.

1m

2m - Natural (I think this is much more useful than people think)
2m+1 - Mixed w/ shortness
2m+2 Asks
+3 low
+4 mid
+5 high

2m+2 Mixed with no shortness
2m+3 Limit
2m+4 Forcing
2m+5 Preemptive

This allows you to distinguish your 4 card junk raises from your 5 card junk raises. Also, with the mixed raise, you can determine if it is more appropriate to play in a minor or NT opposite the strong NT hand.