[neilkaz]

helene_t, on Apr 24 2008, 05:15 AM, said:

Frances is right. In standard methods, 1♠ denies GF values. North can pass with an absolute minimum and typically 3-card spades.

Yes, but this is not a method I care for as often the opps can balance into two of the unbid suit, or there's a better contract available than the 4-3 ♠ fit.

However, noting that quite a few players are responding to 1m with 1♥ with less than 6 pts, they really need to be able to stop the auction to avoid getting hammered in some hopeless game. Noting that PD may respond a bit light, you need a darn good hand to force game with 2♠ and the hand given here seems to have sufficient playing strength in spite of the stiff ace in responder's suit.

The problem with the given auction,IMO, is the combined failure to try to put the breaks on.

Apparently, N intended 3♣ as a preference and didn't want to bid 2NT with no true ♦ stop and was also hoping to have the huge hand play the 3NT. I'd find a different call than 3♣.

I dislike S's 3♦ call, but he's probing for more than game I think as he suspects real ♣ support. I'd have bid 3NT which has to show ♦ stop(s) and allows PD to pass his lousy min.

I hate N's 3♠ call. OK it shows 3 card support, but knowing ♦ is now stopped and aided by your J, why continue to encourage PD with your junk ? PD suspects that you have better ♣ support and some slam interest. Put on the breaks with 3NT !

As we see the wheels fell of this jump shift auction inspite of the early GF of 2♠. This is not the first time this has happened and the main fault is N since he knows 2 things. 1) He doesn't really fit the S hand all that well and 2) S failed to open 2♣ so without at least 1 good fit and some ruffing values, slam is very unlikely so put the breaks on.

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..

[kenrexford]

Have you ever noticed a similarity between a dog jumping all over you in the morning, trying to wake you up, not stopping no matter what you do, all excited and such, and a partner who gets it in him on a hand and you just cannot get him to stop?

Well, if you don't lie completely still and pretend to be asleep, you have no hope at all. Any twitch will start that dog up worse than before.

3♠ was a twitch. 4♠ was shaking a stick at the dog. But, South was the dog.

[gnasher]

hotShot, on Apr 24 2008, 12:26 PM, said:

Learned something new today, I was not aware we play non standard methods around here.

You don't. You play methods that are standard where you play, but non-standard where Frances, MatMat and Helene play.

[CSGibson]

OK, brief moment of honesty here. I was the S player (Woof!), and thought that 3♣ showed real support. Afterwards, I thought every bid was a cue in support of clubs.

We had not discussed bidding after a jump shift prior to the hand, so I thought principles such as bidding the 4th suit as artificial with a hand with no clear direction would apply, while my partner was under the impression that 3♣ on xx is expert standard (in North America, at least) on these auctions.

What is expert standard? Is it to give a false preference to allow partner an extra level of room to describe her hand, or should a bid of the first suit show real support?

[jtfanclub]

No expert here, maybe that's why I'm shocked by people objecting to the 3♠ bid.

North has fairly cruddy hearts, and three spades to an honor. Partner may still have 5 spades, he may be looking for slam, 3♦ may not show anything exciting in diamonds (wanna play 3NT if partner has Ax in diamonds?).

All of this assumes that 3♣ is the bust bid. I thought some people used a rebid of the first suit, others used 2NT. Maybe I'm mistaken.

[TimG]

jtfanclub, on Apr 24 2008, 09:15 AM, said:

No expert here, maybe that's why I'm shocked by people objecting to the 3♠ bid.

North has fairly cruddy hearts, and three spades to an honor. Partner may still have 5 spades, he may be looking for slam, 3♦ may not show anything exciting in diamonds (wanna play 3NT if partner has Ax in diamonds?).

Wouldn't opener have bid 3♠ instead of 3♦ with a 5xx6 hand? King 5th seems like a decent stopper and after the 3♦ bid, if it shows a fragment, three of responder's six HCPs are likely wasted when it comes to a slam.

[the hog]

hotShot, on Apr 24 2008, 05:34 PM, said:

2♠
Why rush? Both opps passed their first turn so there is no need to preempt.
South has a forcing 1♠ bid available and an easy ♦ bid as 4th suit forcing over any bid North might make.

I think modern bidding is to go slow on strong hands, so the jump to 2♠ implies an more unbalanced hand with less HCP.

I would guess that North expects South to have 6+♣ and 4+♠ and 3♣ is the weakest rebid North could make. ♥Kxxxx and ♠Qxx are harly the stopper you would bid NT with, and the South hand should play NT if its strong. So 3♠ promises help to stop ♠ and asks South to bid NT. South passing 3NT is a slam try.
North can only assume that South is even more unbalanced, if he ignores partners weak hand and bids on. Notth has only 2 possibilities to stop at game level, 4♠ (assuming South has 5) and 5♣ unfortunately he choose 4♠.

I totally agree, but some even here on this forum, do not play 1S as forcing. However it is by far not the worst bid.

[mikeh]

The problem appeared to me to be, and was then confirmed by the OP to have been, confusion over the meaning of 3♣.

One took it as a strong bid, the other as merely a preference... one thought that 2N (I assume) was available as an artificial slow-down call, as over reverses, while the other thought 2N showed something in diamonds.

It is difficult and perhaps unfair to then assess further blame, because that basic misunderstanding meant the auction was an accident waiting to happen.

However, since both players should have known that they were guessing, and that there was a chance that they were guessing inconsistently, I think that S bears most of the blame.

He should have bid 3N over 3♠. There was no rush to cue bid hearts. He has shown a BIG hand, that actually is not that good for slam purposes: he has a lot of work to do in the spade suit notwithstanding partner's 'cue'. Surely he can bid 3N....trusting that his partner will be able to pull that call with a slam-suitable holding. I don't normally like taking calls that are hedges against a possible misunderstanding, but 3N is far from 'wrong' even if S is correct in his view of N's bidding, and it is clearly best if he is mistaken.

This hand is not as good as the hcp indicates: it is not nearly as good as, say, AJ10x x AQx AKQxx, where 3N would be a huge underbid IF we were in a strong auction, as S believed.

[pclayton]

This is a very humorous sequence.

1♣, 1♥, 2♠ - All OK.

3♣. It isn't necessary to tell a lie here. 3♦ is a perfectly good hedge.

3♦ - I like it. Patterns out (sort of - this might be an advance cue) and gets partner involved. 3N could be very wrong if pard has a weak heart suit.

3♠ - ??!!!. At some point we need to try to limit our hand and give pard a chance to get off the merry-go-round.

4♥ - OK, pard is making strong slam moves. I've denied heart support so I'll show my card. I still blame North, since North has evidently transmitted a STD to South (Slam Try Disorder). 4♥ is the only wrong call South has made in this auction.

4♠ - North finally wakes up after Mardi Gras and discovers he's made two potential slam tries. The helicopter is spinning and North is trying to land it. Instead, he cue bids a 2nd time (!). Proceed to warp drive Scotty.

5♥ - SON OF A BITCH! Partner is describing: AKx, Qxxx, ??, Qxxx. Lets see if we can coax a diamond control.

6♣ - (I want my Mommy).

Like Josh, I sort of lost interest in this hand after 3♠, since the damage was done with 3♣ and 3♠.

[awm]

I don't get the 3♠ bid.

North has a terrible hand for slam in any strain. Six points in slow cards, no real fit, balanced shape. And surely hearts are not a huge concern with north holding five of them including king and some spots. South will not have five spades on this auction (what was the 3♦ bid then? why not 3♠ over 3♣?). It seems like 3♠ is either an attempt to play in a moysian for no apparent reason (no ruffing value, no problem in the fourth suit) or an attempt to cuebid a non-existent ace or king. South has already shown a diamond control (3♦ is not fourth suit forcing when clubs are agreed!) -- why not bid 3NT here?

I agree there is some uncertainty about how good of a hand/fit 3♣ might show, but surely it could be a real fit. Having made a 3♣ bid that could be a real fit without a real fit, north should try 3NT as soon as it becomes clear that contract is playable.

[ArtK78]

I agree 100% that a 1♠ rebid by opener would not be forcing. That is not to say that bidding 1♠ would be terrible. What is the worst thing that could happen? You wind up playing in 1♠ with 19 facing 5 or 6 and miss a marginal game that may or may not make?

Anyway, aside from that, 3♣ was bad (prefer 2NT) but 3♠ was clearly the worst call. Why is responder making all of these strong sounding calls on a flat 6 count? If the partnership agreement does not allow for a 2NT call over 2♠ (which is the only reason I can come up with for the 3♣ call) then bidding 3NT over 3♦ is 100% clear. 3NT may be the limit of the hand and you have no fit.

After the 3♠ bid, confusion reigned, so none of the bids after that make much sense.

[gnasher]

awm, on Apr 24 2008, 04:42 PM, said:

3♦ is not fourth suit forcing when clubs are agreed!

What would you bid over 3♣ with AKJx xx Qx AKQxx ?

[CSGibson]

gnasher, on Apr 24 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

awm, on Apr 24 2008, 04:42 PM, said:

3♦ is not fourth suit forcing when clubs are agreed!

What would you bid over 3♣ with AKJx xx Qx AKQxx ?

1♠ (over 1♥). I don't think this is quite strong enough to GF. Of course I'm half of the partnership who had this auction anyway, so my opinion probably doesn't have much weight at the moment.

[CSGibson]

pclayton, on Apr 24 2008, 07:42 AM, said:

This is a very humorous sequence.

1♣, 1♥, 2♠ - All OK.

3♣. It isn't necessary to tell a lie here. 3♦ is a perfectly good hedge.

3♦ - I like it. Patterns out (sort of - this might be an advance cue) and gets partner involved. 3N could be very wrong if pard has a weak heart suit.

3♠ - ??!!!. At some point we need to try to limit our hand and give pard a chance to get off the merry-go-round.

4♥ - OK, pard is making strong slam moves. I've denied heart support so I'll show my card. I still blame North, since North has evidently transmitted a STD to South (Slam Try Disorder). 4♥ is the only wrong call South has made in this auction.

4♠ - North finally wakes up after Mardi Gras and discovers he's made two potential slam tries. The helicopter is spinning and North is trying to land it. Instead, he cue bids a 2nd time (!). Proceed to warp drive Scotty.

5♥ - SON OF A BITCH! Partner is describing: AKx, Qxxx, ??, Qxxx. Lets see if we can coax a diamond control.

6♣ - (I want my Mommy).

Like Josh, I sort of lost interest in this hand after 3♠, since the damage was done with 3♣ and 3♠.

Phil, you are my hero. You absolutely captured my whole thought process during the auction, even when I made bad bids.

[jdonn]

pclayton, on Apr 24 2008, 10:42 AM, said:

Like Josh, I sort of lost interest in this hand after 3♠, since the damage was done with 3♣ and 3♠.

Like me lost interest, but not at all for the same reason. I still consider 3♣ perfectly normal. It's merely a preference. And since when is 3♠ a slam try? It's a search for the best game, clearly IMO implying bad hearts for 3NT, which is why I think south should bid it at that point with his help. Ok so he didn't have 3♠ either way, but it shouldn't have induced 4♥ which (sorry OP) I still think is the worst bid.

[the hog]

You hold:
AKxx
A
Jxx
AKJxx

Not playing blackout, why is 3C by responder not just simple preference?
What do you bid with the hand above - 3NT may be a far better contract than 5C and how are you going to find it if you can't bid 3D asking for a stopper? On whose authority is 3D not 4sf? I love those definitive pronouncements like the one made by Adam that 4sf doesn't apply. YOU may play it that way, but certainly not everyone does. What's with this "patterning out" mania?

[Hand edited after thinking under the shower- sorry Josh. Your comment is fair enough and I agree with it. You have to pick some style to use, so you pick what you like. For me, 4sf applies from both hands as I don't really like to find my stopper is jxx opposite xx and that I am going off when 5m or the moysian 4M is a better game. Your views may differ.]

[jdonn]

The_Hog, on Apr 24 2008, 07:37 PM, said:

You hold:
AKxx
A
Jx
AKJxxx

Not playing blackout, why is 3C by responder not just simple preference?
What do you bid with the hand above - 3NT may be a far better contract than 5C and how are you going to find it if you can't bid 3D asking for a stopper? On whose authority is 3D not 4sf? What's with this "patterning out" mania?

I don't understand making these arguments because they work both ways. Take the actual hand, if you bid 3NT and partner is sitting there with a stiff spade he has no clue whether 3NT is best or if he should go on instead. You can't have it both ways, so you choose a style, and I'm happy with the one I use which is completely natural and involves no extra conventions (or misapplied conventions, since AFAIC 4SF only applies on responder's rebid, ever.) Why do we need it to be on someone's authority that a bid which has use as natural is natural?

[CSGibson]

jdonn, on Apr 24 2008, 04:25 PM, said:

pclayton, on Apr 24 2008, 10:42 AM, said:

Like Josh, I sort of lost interest in this hand after 3♠, since the damage was done with 3♣ and 3♠.

Like me lost interest, but not at all for the same reason. I still consider 3♣ perfectly normal. It's merely a preference. And since when is 3♠ a slam try? It's a search for the best game, clearly IMO implying bad hearts for 3NT, which is why I think south should bid it at that point with his help. Ok so he didn't have 3♠ either way, but it shouldn't have induced 4♥ which (sorry OP) I still think is the worst bid.

I'm in agreement with you about my 4♥ being the worst bid in retrospect, for the reasons mentioned by many.

[pretzalz]

I'm surprised no one has suggested opening 2N. Is that really that horrible? I just really don't like jump-shifting into a semi-non suit on this auction.

[han]

Horrible is too strong but I don't like opening 2NT with a singleton when I have a perfect jump shift available. The jump shifts not only shows 4 spades, it also shows 5+ clubs.