[babalu1997]

While it is customary to trap pass holding length and strength in opp's openning suit, the deal I saw this week must qualify for exception. Opponents opened 1club and the player in second seat held

spade- nil
hearts - AKQxxxx
clubs -AJxx
diamond-Kx

I think this hand is too offensive to trap pass, someone has to have a stack of spades, as it turned out, it was partner. Partner also had a singlton heart.

The bidding went:

1club-p-1h- 2S - all pass

the hearts ended up being overruffed.


This has got to be an exception to the trap passes. The heart suit is so pronounced that there is no way a heart contract will be reached.

Never says Never?

Is this right?

Thanks

[gwnn]

you trap pass when your longest suit is RHOs suit! e.g. if RHO had opened 1♥.

[jdonn]

I now dub you babafoo.

[babalu1997]

yeah, Yeah jdonn I have an endearing term for you too, but i dont want to get banned from this forum.

[pclayton]

babalu1997, on Apr 22 2008, 10:05 AM, said:

yeah, Yeah jdonn I have an endearing term for you too, but i dont want to get banned from this forum.

We all have names for Josh.

[jdonn]

pclayton, on Apr 22 2008, 01:13 PM, said:

babalu1997, on Apr 22 2008, 10:05 AM, said:

yeah, Yeah jdonn I have an endearing term for you too, but i dont want to get banned from this forum.

We all have names for Josh.

My mom would be so proud. I think if you called me something lovely there is as good a chance of the thread being pinned as of you being banned

[han]

Downie (AKA jdown AKA best bidder in the world AKA STFUJOSH!) gets a bit restless when foo has been away for too long.

Having said that, the idea of trappassing with this hand is truly ridiculous. As Csaba pointed out, you only trap pass with length in their suit.

[lexlogan]

AJxx is not a holding to inspire a trap pass of a one-level bid, and as you have correctly observed, the heart suit is too good to suppress. Bid 1♥.

With a more balanced hand, say ♠xxx ♥AKQx ♦Kx ♣AJxx, you should overcall 1NT. With five or more hearts you should overcall 1♥, or possibly double (but not with a singleton or void in spades as in your example.)

[neilkaz]

ROFL at passing this hand !! My gosh it is practically game in hand !

Overcall 1♥ or double and then bid ♥ to show a really strong overcall. The problem with doubling is that PD may bury you in ♠. You can call 5♥ over 4♠ and pray that PD doesn't think it's a cue bid. Also the opps may bury you to the 4♠ level but not terribly likely prior to PD getting once chance to respond to your double.

I prefer 1♥ since the auction is very unlikely to die there when you're void in ♠ and since I have constantly stressed to PD's to raise my overcalls at the 1 level to 2 even when holding about the worst junk they'd raise an opening bid from 1 to 2 with.

[ArtK78]

The key question is: If the bidding went (1♣) - P - (P) - x - (P), would you pass for penalties?

If not, then this is not a trap pass.

As is painfully obvious to everyone who posted, one must bid hearts on this hand. 4♥ is the practical call on this hand, as any attempt to show strength first by doubling could wind up getting a 4♠ call from partner.

[jdonn]

Since I haven't made a serious comment in this thread yet, I like 4♥ overcall, it's possible to miss slam but I tend to give up on that after they open. If the auction comes back to me with anything by the opponents next round, I will double, which is pretty standard after these wide ranging game overcalls to just show you had a good hand for your bid.

[neilkaz]

jdonn, on Apr 22 2008, 02:11 PM, said:

Since I haven't made a serious comment in this thread yet, I like 4♥ overcall, it's possible to miss slam but I tend to give up on that after they open. If the auction comes back to me with anything by the opponents next round, I will double, which is pretty standard after these wide ranging game overcalls to just show you had a good hand for your bid.

I don't mind these wide ranging jump overcalls to major suit games just as long as PD knows about them and doesn't have an itchy trigger finger with a double if he thinks I'm bidding to make rather than just preempting or hoping to get lucky and make. Just be cautious about doing it with a really huge hand or you'll miss an occasional slam.

But here, this makes it so much harder for the opps to find 4♠ as they'll often chicken out at that level and may even err if using neg X that high.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

as was pointed out the term "trap pass" is used in
a different scenario.

The most common scenario is, if we open, and they
overcall, e.g.

1D - (1S) - Pass (1) - (Pass)
X (2) - ...

(1) Since most players would play, that a double in
this sequence and situation would be for takeout,
take your pick, if it promises tolerance for all
other suits or just shows hearts, you have to pass,
if you happen to hold 5 good spades, and such a
pass, would be called a trap pass.
Of course most of the time, you pass, because you
are broke.

(2) If the partnership agreed to play trap passes, i.e. if
the pass after the 1S overcall could be a trap pass,
than opener is forced to reopen the bidding the bidding,
if he happens to be short in spades, and the reopening
would be done regardless of his strength.

Another remark: If you give the auction, please give all bids,
if I would not have read your text, I would have assumed, that
the 1H bidder was the partner of the opener.
And the 2S bidder made an overcall.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[awm]

I think the term "trap pass" means "I would like to double for penalty, but we don't play penalty doubles in this auction, so I pass hoping that partner will double for takeout and I can convert."

We all play takeout doubles over one-level openings because having a true penalty double is really rare, and we get to penalize a lot of the times we want to by waiting for partner to double for takeout anyway. Basically we win on the (common) hands where we want to compete and lose only sometimes on the (rare) hands where we want to defend doubled. We play negative doubles and various other takeout-oriented (non-penalty) doubles under similar reasoning.

So the advice of passing with length in the opponents' suit isn't that you should pass just because you happen to have four cards there. It's that you should pass if what you really want is to penalty double them.

On this hand you don't want to defend 1♣X. You want to play the hand in hearts. So don't pass.

[655321]

jdonn, on Apr 22 2008, 12:28 PM, said:

I now dub you babafoo.

Well, how is that for ingratitude, after foo made a one-post return, solely for the purpose of agreeing with Josh!

[Winstonm]

Quote

Since I haven't made a serious comment in this thread yet,

What do you mean "this thread"...

[jdonn]

Winstonm, on Apr 22 2008, 08:22 PM, said:

Quote

Since I haven't made a serious comment in this thread yet,

What do you mean "this thread"...

Winstonm, on Apr 22 2008, 08:18 PM, said:

I'm a uniter, not a divider.

Ok ok, not in context, but I couldn't resist...

[jtfanclub]

jdonn, on Apr 22 2008, 03:11 PM, said:

Since I haven't made a serious comment in this thread yet, I like 4♥ overcall, it's possible to miss slam but I tend to give up on that after they open.

Voids is special.

In this case, I will happily double and later bid hearts, quite possibly at the 5 level. I play power doubles, this is a power double. I could make slam with the king of diamonds and a little luck.

[Trinidad]

awm, on Apr 22 2008, 04:37 PM, said:

I think the term "trap pass" means "I would like to double for penalty, but we don't play penalty doubles in this auction, so I pass hoping that partner will double for takeout and I can convert."

I disagree. I think the term trap pass refers to any pass with a holding that is strong enough to bid (in an auction that is likely not passed out).

One example of the trap pass is the "I have a penalty double but a double is conventional and now I pass, hoping partner can double" -pass. If you read the books by S.J. Simon it is clear that, in the old days, the style of overcalling with weak hands and passing with strong hands (to come in later) was quite popular. Hence, the phrase "I need protection, partner.", meaning: "Partner, you have to balance in fourth seat since I may have a good hand." People used to do that on hands that nowadays would be nice overcalls or even "double and overcall hands".

As to the actual hand: It is obvious that 1♥ or 4♥ are the book bids. There can't be any discussion about that.

However, pass is not as silly as it looks here. I guess the passer had a plan: pass first, then compete in hearts, rebid them (walk the dog), then get doubled and make an overtrick or two. This tactic usually doesn't work against experienced players, but against two typical "BBO experts" it can win a lot. In this case the pass backfired since LHO -quite surprisingly- started to bid hearts. After that, this hand was 'stuck'.

Rik

[helene_t]

ArtK78, on Apr 22 2008, 08:28 PM, said:

The key question is:  If the bidding went (1♣) - P - (P) - x - (P), would you pass for penalties?

Agree (or at least almost agree).

Suppose you have
x
AQJxx
x
KJTxxx

You might consider passing p's reopening double of 1♣ if you pass in the first place, but that is no good reason for not overcalling IMHO.