[jdonn]

655321, on Apr 20 2008, 03:22 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 20 2008, 12:15 PM, said:

Sure if 2♥ shows a good raise to 2♠ then you can bid it. But it doesn't unless you have agreed that specially.

Huh? Without special agreements, what else does it mean?

It would not occur to me to make the feeble 2♠ bid as a passed hand, even if it turns out that game is not good.

Uh, limit raise? He can correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like Ben's first post said he bids it as a constructive raise, and his second post implies he feels that is standard because Robson/Segal play it that way.

655321, on Apr 20 2008, 03:31 PM, said:

I also disagree that North could routinely have hands where he is planning to take the push to the 3 level.  Better by far to bid your hand the first time.

I realize it's a matter of style but I strongly disagree, I often bid 2 when I may be pushed to 3. This is because (semi-sarcastic gasp) they don't always push you to 3!

[kenrexford]

Yeah, I think that 3♠-1 might win the principle but lose nonetheless against those who buy the contract at 2♠.

[Fluffy]

Where is the blame? this game is on 2 fineses, 3♠ is the right contract.

[655321]

Fluffy, on Apr 21 2008, 12:53 AM, said:

Where is the blame? this game is on 2 fineses, 3♠ is the right contract.

Not sure if this comment is a joke...
But, no smilies, so here is a short quiz (just in case):

RHO opened 1♥ and rebid 3♥. The ♥A is very likely to be with [_]?
LHO promised a spade stopper. The ♠K is almost 100% to be with [_]?

Apologies if I missed the humor.

[jdonn]

Both finesses will work probably almost 100% of the time. The only real danger, which is a substantial one, is hearts 1-7 so there being a ruff.

[rogerclee]

655321, on Apr 20 2008, 11:21 PM, said:

But, no smilies, so here is a short quiz (just in case):

RHO opened 1♥ and rebid 3♥. The ♥A is very likely to be with [_]?
LHO promised a spade stopper. The ♠K is almost 100% to be with [_]?

lol

[Codo]

655321, on Apr 21 2008, 03:21 PM, said:

But, no smilies, so here is a short quiz (just in case):

RHO opened 1♥ and rebid 3♥. The ♥A is very likely to be with [_]?
LHO promised a spade stopper. The ♠K is almost 100% to be with [_]?

So you find out double dummy that this a is a game you want to be in?

Souths knows that the King of HEarts is well placed, but worries about his trump losers and maybe even a heart ruff.
North knows that the AJ of Spades are well placed but worries about the hearts.

So both have reasons to miss this game.

If you have the tools to show a good raise with the north hand and 2 Spade just shows 3 Spades, then North should have use this bid (2 Heart).
If south had a tool to show a good invitation instead of a competetive bid (X) he should have used it.

Obviously they had no tool, so they chose reasonable bids. Nothing to blame.

[whereagles]

I think both sides bid reasonably.

[ulven]

Not bidding 2H with the North hand is really bad bidding, seriously. At that point there is no reason to downgrade xxx in hearts. Nothing wasted in hearts, great! We have a cheap way of showing a good raise, great!

How can a simple hand like this generate so many different views? Don't bother to answer that one ;-)


Edited after remark below.

[jtfanclub]

ulven, on Apr 21 2008, 05:48 AM, said:

Not bidding 2sp with the North hand is really bad bidding, seriously. At that point there is no reason to downgrade xxx in hearts. Nothing wasted in hearts, great! We have a cheap way of showing a good raise, great!

How can a simple hand like this generate so many different views? Don't bother to answer that one ;-)

Um, did you mean 2he?

Unless you play 2sp here as a good raise....

(I would have bid 2♥, since we can still stop in 2♠. I would not have made a limit raise if we'd have to stop at the 3 level)

[ulven]

jtfanclub, on Apr 21 2008, 08:54 AM, said:

Um, did you mean 2he?

Of course I meant 2H ;-)

[dcvetkov]

I am in Mcphee - J Donn Camp ( Actually , finding that agree with jdonn more and more lately;)

Hard to get percentages, but South should bear bigger burden fot not making a game try.On this bidding, hand improve significantly in values, so maximal dbl ( if used) should be bid. North will surely bid game after this.

if North has a way to convey the 4 trumps message and constructive bid, he should use it, but I dont know why a lot of people think that 2♥ is some kind of a standard bid everyone in the world is using.

[jtfanclub]

dcvetkov, on Apr 21 2008, 11:22 AM, said:

if North has a way to convey the 4 trumps message and constructive bid, he should use it, but I dont know why a lot of people think that 2♥ is some kind of a standard bid everyone in the world is using.

I think 100% of people I asked around here would consider 2♥ as a cue bid, either a limit raise, a constructive raise, or a generic cue (usually showing either a limit raise or any GF hand).

I can't imagine what else it could mean. Surely if you needed a bid to show hearts in this auction, you'd use X for it.

[neilkaz]

As North I'd show a good raise to 2♠ by bidding 2♥ since my AJxx in ♠ are just huge sitting over the NT bidder and almost certainly his honor for a stopper is useless and with 4 trumps we can pull 3 rounds and I retain one just incase. I don't like xxx in ♥ but perhaps PD has an onside honor.

As South if playing maximal doubles, I make one here and if not, on the given sequence, I just bid 3♠.

Also if not playing maximal doubles, shouldn't S's 3♠ be at least a mild invite to game, noting he can pass hands where's he's thinking about competing to 3♠ and give N a chance to bid it himself or make a balancing double if his raise wasn't junk. So if not playing max X, N could give consideration to 4♠.

Anyhow...no serious blame here as game can still go off, but 85% of the small bit of blame to N as I'd have bid 2♥.

.. neilkaz ..

[awm]

Sometimes there are games that are hard to bid. Especially these sorts of games where you have very few points and the game wouldn't even be good except that the auction places some cards for you.

Anyways, what blame there is goes to south. Generally speaking, I don't think making a "mixed raise" on a 4333 hand is particularly good tactics. And I'm sure the standard is that 2♥ cuebid is more of a limit raise than a "constructive raise" particularly opposite an overcall with both opponents bidding -- do we really want to be in the auction on Kxx xx xxxx xxxx here? If not, I think we can do without a "constructive raise" and we need a way to show something like 10-12 points in support keeping in mind that partner could have some 8-count (and in fact it's pretty likely if advancer has a good hand and opponents opened and bid 1NT that partner has some 8-count).

Should north really be making aggressive moves towards game with nine points, no shortage, and two jacks? I don't really think so. All south needs for game is something like:

(1) ♠AJ and a king
(2) three kings
(3) a top ♠ honor and KQ in either minor
(4) ♠A and a club singleton

These are all fairly nice hands, but they don't require four trumps or any kind of super-maximum.

[marcD]

I have no issue with 2S (2H would be an overbid and whhy go to the 3 level with 4333). The only questionnable bid in my mind is 3S which sounds competitive instead of DBL . So South 60% bad luck/why is it that good a game? 40%

[skjaeran]

No other bid than 2♥ over 1NT would occur to me here.
2♠ is too feeble for me.

Anyway, it's not obvious to bid this game even after 2♥. You'll have a good chance to reach it, but it's hard to know that all your cards are working 100% together as they do on this nice fitting couple of hands.