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if/how to investigate 6061 hand with 3 losers on LTC

Poll: What's your bid (36 member(s) have cast votes)

What's your bid

  1. Pass (7 votes [19.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.44%

  2. 4NT (5 votes [13.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.89%

  3. 5D (3 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  4. 5H (7 votes [19.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.44%

  5. 5S (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. 6S (10 votes [27.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.78%

  7. I would have opened 2C (strong) (1 votes [2.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.78%

  8. I would have opened 4NT (specific ace ask) (1 votes [2.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.78%

  9. Other (please explain) (2 votes [5.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 06:07

Scoring: IMP

1S-(2H)-4S-(P)
??


Picked up this hand last night. Partner's profile says advanced. No agreements on system so SAYC assumed. Also, if you choose one of the options that could potentially mean a few things, please say what you would take it as.

For anyone who bids 4NT, you get a 5D response showing 1 ace, do you go ahead and bid the slam hoping it's not the ♥A?
Wayne Somerville
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#2 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 06:20

Agree with 1♠ and 4NT.

I would just bid 6♠ now. Partner has the ♥A about 1/3 of the time (maybe a bit less after the overcall), then we go down in 6. When partner has the ♦A we are almost certain to make 6♠, and when he has the ♣A we will usually make 6♠.
So on all the information you can obtain, you will make slam well over 50% of the time.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#3 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 06:45

Hands like this one pretty much screw you over unless you have some partnership agreements to rely on.

4NT won't give you any useful information.

5♥ on the other hand will tell partner just what to do
Alderaan delenda est
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#4 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 06:49

manudude03, on Apr 18 2008, 01:07 PM, said:

For anyone who bids 4NT, you get a 5D response showing 1 ace, do you go ahead and bid the hoping it's not the ♥A?

Well, obviously that was the purpose of bidding 4NT.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#5 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 08:46

Hi,

Pass.

For whats it worth, getting 5D as an answer to 4NT
is not surprising, the alternative would be 5C.
4S is a weak preemptive raise, i.e. partner does
not have 2 Aces.

Since I wont be able to make a intelligent decision
I pass.

But this is certainly even to chicken for a chicken.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#6 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 13:00

Does anyone play specific aces here?
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#7 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 13:36

i think i bid 6♠
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#8 User is offline   sheepman 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 15:31

5♣

6♠ over 5♦, otherwise 5♠

Don't think pard should bid 5♦ on a small singelton here
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#9 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 15:50

I'd go the 4NT route, simply hoping for a heart lead or some other misdefense if partner has the ace of hearts.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#10 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 18:44

jdonn, on Apr 18 2008, 03:50 PM, said:

I'd go the 4NT route, simply hoping for a heart lead or some other misdefense if partner has the ace of hearts.

Me too, I am surprised noone else has suggested this route yet. I think the odds are better than for any other plan.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#11 User is offline   effervesce 

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Posted 2008-April-18, 20:51

5♥, exclusion keycard blackwood.
Ming

--Always remember you're unique. Just like everyone else.
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#12 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-April-19, 09:38

rogerclee, on Apr 18 2008, 08:00 PM, said:

Does anyone play specific aces here?

Interesting idea. Maybe 4NT could be used for something better than Blacky when p can't have more than one ace.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#13 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2008-April-19, 16:10

Partner had a much better hand than I was expecting myself.

Scoring: IMP

1♠-(2♥)-4♠-(P)
5♥-(P)-5♠-AP


It would be interesting to see how many people would have made the slam on say, a diamond lead (or club lead and diamond switch) if they had this hand at the table. Seems a heart lead or club to the AK were the standards though.
Wayne Somerville
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#14 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-April-19, 17:56

cherdano, on Apr 18 2008, 04:44 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 18 2008, 03:50 PM, said:

I'd go the 4NT route, simply hoping for a heart lead or some other misdefense if partner has the ace of hearts.

Me too, I am surprised noone else has suggested this route yet. I think the odds are better than for any other plan.

It doesn't really matter. If pard's ace is somewhere other that hearts, you are going to be close to cold. If it's in hearts, you probably aren't getting a heart lead, although its possible.

I think its a reasonable shot to assume pard has one of the minor aces if he shows one key.
"Phil" on BBO
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#15 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-April-19, 17:58

manudude03, on Apr 19 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

Partner had a much better hand than I was expecting myself.

Dealer: North
Vul: Both
Scoring: IMP
♠ AKT762
♥  
♦ KQT742
♣ 5
♠ Q84
♥ 943
♦ 9
♣ AKT432
♠  
♥ AQT872
♦ J8653
♣ 96
♠ J953
♥ KJ65
♦ A
♣ QJ87
1♠-(2♥)-4♠-(P)
5♥-(P)-5♠-AP


It would be interesting to see how many people would have made the slam on say, a diamond lead (or club lead and diamond switch) if they had this hand at the table. Seems a heart lead or club to the AK were the standards though.

A club lead is the most interesting. I'd hate to play against the West player that wins the A♣ and fires a diamond at T2.
"Phil" on BBO
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#16 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2008-April-19, 18:29

fwiw, that's a ridiculous 4♠ call
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#17 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-April-19, 19:22

So, what am I missing? I don't see any way to make on a diamond or club lead, and on a club lead I don't see how to make on any continuation except spade queen or club ten.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#18 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2008-April-19, 19:31

Haven't considered every lead possibility, but if W tries to cash the club K, ruff it, play the A to find the 3-0 split, diamond to the ace, then cash QJ of clubs discarding diamonds before finessing the spades.

I was trying to say I'm not sure if you would really want to be in it (though this layout is one of the more obvious change 1 pip and you can always make if you guess the split- in this case swap the 7 and 8 of diamonds and you make with 6 spades, 5 diamonds and a diamond ruff)
Wayne Somerville
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#19 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2008-April-20, 01:51

manudude03, on Apr 20 2008, 03:31 AM, said:

Haven't considered every lead possibility, but if W tries to cash the club K, ruff it, play the A to find the 3-0 split, diamond to the ace, then cash QJ of clubs

One of them obviously was played at trick one, covering the lead of the nine....
As Josh I don't really see any way to win the contract unless opps unblock a vital card.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#20 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-April-21, 04:29

rogerclee, on Apr 18 2008, 07:00 PM, said:

Does anyone play specific aces here?

No.

Incidently, 5♥ is the bid. Shows 1st round control of hearts, and hence denies the same 1st round control in the minors. Pard will (hopefully) act accordingly.
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