[babalu1997]

Scoring: MP

1♣P 1♥ P 2♦ P 2♥ ALL PASS

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Last night West opened and reversed on a hand which I would surely pass as dealer.

I was playing as a sub and the player had SA in his profile so I had hoped that the reverse showed more solid values, and, holding two aces , I had another bid.

I chose to rebid the hearts, rather then 2NT.

I would like to know what would be the correct bid in the absence of the lebensohl convention, and in case the reverse really possessed the requirements of such bidding in SA.

Playing 2H with that trump suit was no picnic.

[helene_t]

The conventional 2NT rebid by responder is referred to as Ingberman rather than Lebensohl. Btw some would use 2♠ as sign-off here since that's cheaper than 2N.

I don't know if 2♥ is forcing in SAYC. SA is obviously not very specific. Anyway, a player who is capable of reversing on this hand is probably not capable of discussing such advanced topics.

Opposite I good player, your 2♥ is probably correct. Opposite an unknown p, who knows. Maybe 3NT is the safest option.

[mikeh]

helene_t, on Apr 17 2008, 02:24 PM, said:

The conventional 2NT rebid by responder is referred to as Ingberman rather than Lebensohl. Btw some would use 2♠ as sign-off here since that's cheaper than 2N.

I don't know if 2♥ is forcing in SAYC. SA is obviously not very specific. Anyway, a player who is capable of reversing on this hand is probably not capable of discussing such advanced topics.

Opposite I good player, your 2♥ is probably correct. Opposite an unknown p, who knows. Maybe 3NT is the safest option.

Actually, I think (and may be wrong, of course) that Ingberman is a modification of the use of 2N as a relay, usually a sign of weakness.. Ingeberman uses the cheaper of 4th suit or 2N as the weakness bid.

As for the OP, there really isn't much point to knowing how to bid opposite a reverse when partner reverses on that silly hand

I think the problem, in SA, is more or less insoluble, which is why methods were developed, but one thing is for sure: in SA, the reverse guarantees another bid, so I would bid 2♥ here. Not only is this ok on the heart suit (a minimum, certainly) but more importantly it will usually allow for a more accurate auction.... and may get notrump played from the right side. OTOH, playing with a poor player, maybe the more pragmatic bid is 2N. 3N is even more pragmatic but requires a specific partner: one who knows that the reverse promises significant extras and yet is bad enough that he might pass 2N Bidding 2N caters to the ignorant partner you actually had (note: contrary to common usage amongst many people these days, 'ignorant' is not synonomous with 'stupid'. Ignorance can be cured by acquisition of knowledge.. there is no known cure for stupidity, other than coffee)

[jtfanclub]

babalu1997, on Apr 17 2008, 02:18 PM, said:

I would like to know what would be the correct bid in the absence of the lebensohl convention, and in case the reverse really possessed the requirements of such bidding in SA.

I'd probably use the "gtg, my cat is choking" convention, once I saw their hand.

I don't see what's wrong with 2♠. If partner decides to go for slam, the main thing he's likely to need to know is which aces I have. Hopefully the later part of the auction will make it clear that it was a cue.

[P_Marlowe]

2S, FSF.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Free]

2♥ is wrong: it shows a weak hand with long ♥s, so it's NF. Just bid 2♠ as 4SF (if your pickup partner will understand that?).

Obviously the reverse is ridiculous

[P_Marlowe]

Free, on Apr 18 2008, 01:34 AM, said:

2♥ is wrong: it shows a weak hand with long ♥s, so it's NF.  <snip>

While I agree, and play that way as well, it is
certainly not standard.
At least in north america a reverse promises
a 2nd rebid, i.e. 2H would be forcing for them,
see several threads regarding this topic, or
read MikeHs comment carefully.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ArtK78]

In old-fashioned Standard American, a reverse bid was GAME FORCING. So the bidding over the reverse was natural. In that case, 2♥ is just fine.

In most Standard structures today, the 2♥ bid is "neutral." It does not promise weakness, nor does it promise strength. But since opener has promised a rebid, responder will get another chance to describe his hand later.

On this hand, I have no problem with 2♥. Whatever opener is planning to do next, responder will have a bid available.

By the way, if one plays that the cheaper of the 4th suit or 2NT shows weakness, one might bid 2NT on these cards, since it would be game forcing. But this hand doesn't look like it should be declaring the notrump contract.

[skjaeran]

2♥ after reverse would be forcing to me, showing the 5th heart, but not promising or denying extra strength.

Only 3♣ (with most partners) would be NF to me.

[benlessard]

I like to play that the cheapest bid after the reverse is the slow down everything else is GF. So you have an easy 2S wich is GF & showing at least a stopper and denying a fit or solid hearts.

[mike777]

OF course opener does not have a true reverse but assuming she did then as responder:
1) I am forced to rebid 2s here as a game force, 4sf type bid.
2) 2h would be 5+hearts but weaker but still one round forcing but not promising a rebid
3) 2nt would again show a weaker hand, deny 5H and not promise stoppers but still one round forcing but not promising a rebid.
4) 3c or 3d would be natural by responder, promising support and again game forcing.

In all cases whatever responder bids it is either game forcing or forces opener to bid one more time. Of course opener should have a much stronger hand.

[han]

2H forcing.

[lilboyman]

Since a reverse may describe a hand with as little as 16 or 17 HCP, I don't see how 2 Hearts can be forcing. What would one bid over a reverse with 6 or 7 HCP and just a Heart suit? In the hand shown responder has 10 HCP and knows that opposite a true reverse the partnership holds game values and must make a bid which is game forcing. In this case, 2 Spades or 3NT.

[ArtK78]

lilboyman, on Apr 22 2008, 06:44 PM, said:

Since a reverse may describe a hand with as little as 16 or 17 HCP, I don't see how 2 Hearts can be forcing.  What would one bid over a reverse with 6 or 7 HCP and just a Heart suit?  In the hand shown responder has 10 HCP and knows that opposite a true reverse the partnership holds game values and must make a bid which is game forcing.  In this case, 2 Spades or 3NT.

It is forcing because the reverse promises another bid.

This is the SAYC and 2/1 Forum, so I can state with assurance that this is true. In other systems, it is not true. Many years ago (30, to be exact) I played the original version of Romex. In the original version of Romex, the reverse bid itself was not forcing. I am sure that is true in other systems as well.

[the hog]

First comment: "Last night West opened and reversed on a hand which I would surely pass as dealer."
You have got to be kidding if you would pass this.

Second comment: Many people play 2NT after a reverse as a blackout bid, forcing 3C, (which can be passed). The corollary is that 2H is forcing now. Btw, I would not bid 2H with your hand, but rather 2S 4sf

[han]

The_Hog, on Apr 22 2008, 09:47 PM, said:

First comment: "Last night West opened and reversed on a hand which I would surely pass as dealer."
You have got to be kidding if you would pass this.

Agree with this.

[neilkaz]

han, on Apr 22 2008, 09:47 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 22 2008, 09:47 PM, said:

First comment: "Last night West opened and reversed on a hand which I would surely pass as dealer."
You have got to be kidding if you would pass this.

Agree with this.

One of my cats is HONESTLY named Babalu and he's seen lots of online bridge sitting on my desk. He opens it, and leaves to walk the dog (after announcing that we "obviously" don't have one) when opener reverses here at least a K if not an A light.

[neilkaz]

The_Hog, on Apr 22 2008, 08:47 PM, said:

First comment: "Last night West opened and reversed on a hand which I would surely pass as dealer."
You have got to be kidding if you would pass this.

Second comment: Many people play 2NT after a reverse as a blackout bid, forcing 3C, (which can be passed). The corollary is that 2H is forcing now. Btw, I would not bid 2H with your hand, but rather 2S 4sf

I don't play 4SF after a reverse but do play Leb so for me, 2♥ shows GF values and 5+ ♥..looking for 3 card support.

[whereagles]

I like 2♥ as forcing. That allows for a simple rule: "After opener made a strong rebid, all bids are forcing except 2NT over a reverse."