[jdonn]

kfay, on Apr 14 2008, 10:09 AM, said:

pclayton, on Apr 14 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

kfay, on Apr 14 2008, 06:43 AM, said:

pclayton, on Apr 13 2008, 09:39 PM, said:

Pass should be forcing if the 5♣ bidder was a passed hand. Otherwise, only by agreement.

I disagree with this. Then we're also a PH.... possibly a worse one.

Do I need an opening hand to make a FP?

Obviously not. I'm just saying that I'd hope to have SOMETHING. And it's quite possible that I don't.

Maybe LHO made a heavy preempt and RHO passed a limitish hand 1st seat and now is presuming partner doesn't have much.

Forcing pass is 99% leading to disaster here. Double around 60%.

Do you know that or do you just 'feel' it?

It's impossible for pass to not be forcing if rho is a passed hand. That means they have a random preempt and a passed hand trying to make 11 out of 13 tricks! Us being a passed hand is a red herring. Whatever we don't have, partner has.

[kfay]

jdonn, on Apr 14 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

It's impossible for pass to not be forcing if rho is a passed hand. That means they have a random preempt and a passed hand trying to make 11 out of 13 tricks! Us being a passed hand is a red herring. Whatever we don't have, partner has.

I've been thinking about this and I guess I don't understand what you're saying.

Are you saying that if we pass we're saying 'partner bid whatever it was you were going to bid regardless of whether we agreed this is a forcing pass or not.' or are you saying that if we have a few scrappy points we have to double to prevent partner from going to slam. Because I don't see the difference. If you're saying that when we have 0 points partner must have 22+ real so he's going to take a bid after we pass then, sure, I agree that pass is forcing. But that doesn't make it a forcing pass.

[P_Marlowe]

kfay, on Apr 14 2008, 10:09 AM, said:

pclayton, on Apr 14 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

kfay, on Apr 14 2008, 06:43 AM, said:

pclayton, on Apr 13 2008, 09:39 PM, said:

Pass should be forcing if the 5♣ bidder was a passed hand. Otherwise, only by agreement.

I disagree with this. Then we're also a PH.... possibly a worse one.

Do I need an opening hand to make a FP?

Obviously not. I'm just saying that I'd hope to have SOMETHING. And it's quite possible that I don't.

Maybe LHO made a heavy preempt and RHO passed a limitish hand 1st seat and now is presuming partner doesn't have much.

Forcing pass is 99% leading to disaster here. Double around 60%.

Hi,

you argue with extreme hands, which is certainly
not the most likely scenario.
At least if one also keeps in mind, that preempts
get lighter every day.

A forcing pass will lead sometimes to 5Cx=instead
of 5C, but more often to 5Cx-1 instead of 5C-1.

If the frequency makes playing FP a equal proposition,
I dont know, but you gain the ability to better judge
slam prospects.

I dont play FP, but if I think longer about it, I think
one could convince me, that it will at least break even.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdonn]

kfay, on Apr 14 2008, 02:41 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 14 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

It's impossible for pass to not be forcing if rho is a passed hand. That means they have a random preempt and a passed hand trying to make 11 out of 13 tricks! Us being a passed hand is a red herring. Whatever we don't have, partner has.

I've been thinking about this and I guess I don't understand what you're saying.

Are you saying that if we pass we're saying 'partner bid whatever it was you were going to bid regardless of whether we agreed this is a forcing pass or not.' or are you saying that if we have a few scrappy points we have to double to prevent partner from going to slam. Because I don't see the difference. If you're saying that when we have 0 points partner must have 22+ real so he's going to take a bid after we pass then, sure, I agree that pass is forcing. But that doesn't make it a forcing pass.

It means pass says you want to bid something and have good offense, which is only possible on the logic that we will never (I know I know, nothing is 100%) want to pass the hand out. We know this because because they have a preempt opposite a passed hand at the five level. Double is either a defensive hand or a bad hand. I honestly don't see what's hard about the concept, it is in fact quite logical.

I think the comment I made that confused you was in reply to your saying essentially 'so what if rho is a passed hand, his hand could still be better than ours'. I was trying to say that isn't very relevant.