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Question about military uniforms

#41 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 10:04

luke warm, on Apr 12 2008, 09:28 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 11 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 11 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

some want freedom, some don't.. to say the military can't or won't avail a country whose population wants freedom (and whose military backs that position) seems fallacious to me

But isn't this country on the whole strongly opposed to the current, what shall I call it, military mission?

yes... some in different ways though... for example, some were against it originally but now know we can't just pull out overnight...

I don't know anyone whose beliefs have followed that path. As far as I can see, anyone who believes we shouldn't have been there but can't just pull out now is someone who believed we should go in at the beginning and then needed another (lame - IMO) excuse to justify their earlier belief.
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#42 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 11:29

Just ask the Iraqis, or the Vietnamese, or the Amerindians......

IF there was no oil (or opium or some other critical and expensive commodity) there, then would the US even be interested?

YOUR problem (the people of the USofA) is that you now have a law that says that you can be arrested and your property confiscated if you impede the prosecution of the the "war" in Iraq.

Land of the free? btw how is the brave going? (or when)
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#43 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 11:33

luke warm, on Apr 12 2008, 08:28 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 11 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 11 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

some want freedom, some don't.. to say the military can't or won't avail a country whose population wants freedom (and whose military backs that position) seems fallacious to me

But isn't this country on the whole strongly opposed to the current, what shall I call it, military mission?

yes... some in different ways though... for example, some were against it originally but now know we can't just pull out overnight... some were for it originally, found out there were lies told and then became opponents... but that just goes to my last point above

Huh? I am very strongly against the Iraq war, but I also believe it would be adding another mistake to pull out over night immediately. The US does have some responsibility for the mess it created.

This doesn't mean that my opinion changed at all.
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#44 User is offline   rona_ 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 12:27

Quote

Another question: What is the 'colourful thingy' actually called?

Rik


A "fruit salad".
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#45 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 12:47

I am fully with Arend.

I was strongly opposed to the invasion of Iraq. It should have never happened. But once it started, continuing was the least of evils. Now, the USA will have to go all the way. They created the mess, they are responsible for the clean up.

For me, pulling out of Iraq now is the equivalent of causing a traffic accident and running away, leaving the victims behind.

Rik
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#46 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 13:41

Trinidad, on Apr 12 2008, 01:47 PM, said:

I am fully with Arend.

I was strongly opposed to the invasion of Iraq. It should have never happened. But once it started, continuing was the least of evils. Now, the USA will have to go all the way. They created the mess, they are responsible for the clean up.

For me, pulling out of Iraq now is the equivalent of causing a traffic accident and running away, leaving the victims behind.

Rik

I think there is a misconception that the view is to pull the troops out the next day or something. Even a quick pullout would take over a year I believe, so it wouldn't be some sort of immediate abandonment.

When you say "going all the way" I don't know exactly what you mean, but the way things have been throughout this war I'm sure it would take decades. How is that worth it?
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#47 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 15:20

jdonn, on Apr 12 2008, 02:41 PM, said:

When you say "going all the way" I don't know exactly what you mean, but the way things have been throughout this war I'm sure it would take decades. How is that worth it?

"Going all the way" means leave the country better than it was before the invasion. It's easier to break things than to repair. So yes, it's going to take decades.

As to: How is that worth it...

If you invade a country and claim to do that to improve the lives of its inhabitants you cannot possibly consider leaving the country shred to pieces and with refugees spread all over the world. You would be declaring bankruptcy on your integrity. Is that what the USA wants to show to the countries in the Middle East? Can you put a price on that?

Imagine going into someone's house to help them unprompted, with nothing but the best of intentions. In the process you are destroying the house, ruining the garden, killing the son and separating the parents in a bitter conflict. The daughter runs to the neighbors and the baby is left without care. Would you consider picking up the family picture, blowing off the dust, putting it back on what's left of the mantle, walking out of the house, going on with your live as if nothing happened?

(If this would be a scene from Monty Python, you would at least hear John Cleese say: 'ahum... err.. sorry... err... chaps'. That should give an idea of how absurd this situation is.)

Rik
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#48 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 15:54

Where do people get these analogies that don't fit at all? Our good intentions were some combination of lies and incorrect facts by our government, their country was in bad shape before so we weren't exactly destroying the paradise you make it seem, and you tell me the middle east country other than Israel that wants us anywhere in the area. What is the main reason that the people we call terrorists hate us so much? Because we are in their areas! We are paying trillions of dollars and thousands of lives to ensure that we will get attacked again and again.

Does it strike you that more Americans have died in Iraq than in the 9/11 attack? And the answer is to stay there forever?

When I said "How is that worth it?" I phrased it as a question because the answer is so obvious. But I guess to some it isn't....

Edit since I see Helene's post below: Yes it's well known as a sunk cost in basic economics, and is perhaps the most common irrational thought process humans have.
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#49 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 16:41

Trinidad, on Apr 12 2008, 10:20 PM, said:

As to: How is that worth it...

If you invade a country and claim to do that to improve the lives of its inhabitants you cannot possibly consider leaving the country shred to pieces and with refugees spread all over the world. You would be declaring bankruptcy on your integrity.

This is a classical fallacy. Bygones are bygones. The integrity of the US government is already bankrupt and there's nothing that can be done about that, but fortunately it's irrelevant. The question is: what are the costs and benefits of staying in Iraq, compared to the option of leaving? This is all that matters. How Iraq was before the invasion, and how it might have been in the absence of an invasion, is irrelevant.
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#50 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 17:25

Quote

If you invade a country and claim to do that to improve the lives of its inhabitants you cannot possibly consider leaving the country shred to pieces and with refugees spread all over the world.


Begin rant.

I am fed up with this type of "free pass" non-critical psedo-lie granted this administration for its invasion. There was never a consideration to "invade to improve the lives of Iraqis". Where the hell were you in 2002-2003, during the runup to the invasion? On Mars?

Here, in their own words, are the reasons the Bush administration gave for the necessity of invasion: (emphasis added).

1.

Quote

On August 26, 2002, in an address to the national convention of the Veteran of Foreign Wars, Cheney flatly declared: "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us." In fact, former CIA Director George Tenet later recalled, Cheney's assertions went well beyond his agency's assessments at the time. Another CIA official, referring to the same speech, told journalist Ron Suskind, "Our reaction was, 'Where is he getting this stuff from?' "


2.

Quote

In the closing days of September 2002, with a congressional vote fast approaching on authorizing the use of military force in Iraq, Bush told the nation in his weekly radio address: "The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons, is rebuilding the facilities to make more and, according to the British government, could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order is given. . . . This regime is seeking a nuclear bomb, and with fissile material could build one within a year." A few days later, similar findings were also included in a much-hurried National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction — an analysis that hadn't been done in years, as the intelligence community had deemed it unnecessary and the White House hadn't requested it.


3)

Quote

In July 2002, Rumsfeld had a one-word answer for reporters who asked whether Iraq had relationships with Al Qaeda terrorists: "Sure." In fact, an assessment issued that same month by the Defense Intelligence Agency (and confirmed weeks later by CIA Director Tenet) found an absence of "compelling evidence demonstrating direct cooperation between the government of Iraq and Al Qaeda." What's more, an earlier DIA assessment said that "the nature of the regime's relationship with  Al Qaeda is unclear."


4)

Quote

On May 29, 2003, in an interview with Polish TV, President Bush declared: "We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories." But as journalist Bob Woodward reported in State of Denial, days earlier a team of civilian experts dispatched to examine the two mobile labs found in Iraq had concluded in a field report that the labs were not for biological weapons. The team's final report, completed the following month, concluded that the labs had probably been used to manufacture hydrogen for weather balloons.


5)

Quote

On January 28, 2003, in his annual State of the Union address, Bush asserted: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production." Two weeks earlier, an analyst with the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research sent an email to colleagues in the intelligence community laying out why he believed the uranium-purchase agreement "probably is a hoax."


This is more than simply "poor intelligence". This is taking poor intelligence and spinning it into a gospel-like truth to justify an invasion. I suggest we remember how we got into Iraq rather than worrying so much about how to get out and the consequences of withdrawl. Go or stay, it will be ugly and brutal.

But to sugar coat the crap we were fed as "poor intelligence" or "to bring democracy to the middle east" or to "improve the lives of Iraqis" is an insult to MY intelligence. We invaded for only one reason - ONE ONLY: We were told that it was imperative to invade to protect ourselves from imminent terrorists attack, sponsored by Iraq, which could include a nuclear device.

And how much truth was in that declaration? None.

Simply poor intelligence? No. At intelligence meetings, both pros and cons are aired - the decision had to have been made to completely and totally ignore any contradictory information. But the one thing it was never, ever about was: "mproving the lives of Iraqis".

Give me a break.

End of rant.
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#51 User is online   PassedOut 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 17:55

Winstonm, on Apr 12 2008, 06:25 PM, said:

We invaded for only one reason - ONE ONLY: We were told that it was imperative to invade to protect ourselves from imminent terrorists attack, sponsored by Iraq, which could include a nuclear device.

Yes, the war became one of "nation-building" after Bush's original mistakes became clear to everyone.

Imagine what the republicans would have said if Al Gore had been president and:

1. Blown through the budget surplus in 6 months.
2. Let bin Laden escape after 9/11.
3. Attacked Iraq to save us from imaginary WMD.
4. Changed the war to "nation-building" when the truth became clear.

Their shouting would be loud and continuous.
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#52 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 18:05

cherdano, on Apr 12 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 12 2008, 08:28 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 11 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 11 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

some want freedom, some don't.. to say the military can't or won't avail a country whose population wants freedom (and whose military backs that position) seems fallacious to me

But isn't this country on the whole strongly opposed to the current, what shall I call it, military mission?

yes... some in different ways though... for example, some were against it originally but now know we can't just pull out overnight... some were for it originally, found out there were lies told and then became opponents... but that just goes to my last point above

Huh? I am very strongly against the Iraq war, but I also believe it would be adding another mistake to pull out over night immediately. The US does have some responsibility for the mess it created.

This doesn't mean that my opinion changed at all.

luke warm, on Apr 12 2008, 09:28 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 11 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 11 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

some want freedom, some don't.. to say the military can't or won't avail a country whose population wants freedom (and whose military backs that position) seems fallacious to me

But isn't this country on the whole strongly opposed to the current, what shall I call it, military mission?

yes... some in different ways though... for example, some were against it originally but now know we can't just pull out overnight...

Quote

I don't know anyone whose beliefs have followed that path. As far as I can see, anyone who believes we shouldn't have been there but can't just pull out now is someone who believed we should go in at the beginning and then needed another (lame - IMO) excuse to justify their earlier belief.

then you seem to be saying that arend "...believed we should go in at the beginning and then needed another (lame - IMO) excuse to justify their earlier belief..." ... arend, maybe i didn't say it well but i was trying to convey the same thing you said... that there are people who were against the war but, now that we're there, know we can't just withdraw... jdonn is saying you weren't *really* against it at the start but are now just saying that as a "lame" excuse to justify being in favor of it

Trinidad, on Apr 12 2008, 01:47 PM, said:

I am fully with Arend.

I was strongly opposed to the invasion of Iraq. It should have never happened. But once it started, continuing was the least of evils. Now, the USA will have to go all the way. They created the mess, they are responsible for the clean up.

For me, pulling out of Iraq now is the equivalent of causing a traffic accident and running away, leaving the victims behind.

Rik

and another who, according to jdonn, is just making up a "lame" excuse

Winstonm, on Apr 12 2008, 06:25 PM, said:

Here, in their own words, are the reasons the Bush administration gave for the necessity of invasion: (emphasis added).

winston, i don't think anyone is saying anything against what you posted here... the question concerned the military and whether or not a country owed its military for some things
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#53 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 18:08

PassedOut, on Apr 12 2008, 06:55 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Apr 12 2008, 06:25 PM, said:

We invaded for only one reason - ONE ONLY: We were told that it was imperative to invade to protect ourselves from imminent terrorists attack, sponsored by Iraq, which could include a nuclear device.

Yes, the war became one of "nation-building" after Bush's original mistakes became clear to everyone.

Imagine what the republicans would have said if Al Gore had been president and:

1. Blown through the budget surplus in 6 months.
2. Let bin Laden escape after 9/11.
3. Attacked Iraq to save us from imaginary WMD.
4. Changed the war to "nation-building" when the truth became clear.

Their shouting would be loud and continuous.

what's your point?
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#54 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 18:23

Lukewarm, you are totally misrepresenting everything that is right in front of your nose!

Firstly, Arend isn't someone who as you keep saying 'was' against the war but now believes we have to stay. He still is against the war!

luke warm, on Apr 12 2008, 07:05 PM, said:

cherdano, on Apr 12 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

I am very strongly against the Iraq war

See, right there in your own quotation! Big difference, hombre! So please don't tell me I'm accusing him of in any way justifying being in favor of it when he is quite clear that he is not in favor of it.

As for Trinidad, read the last few posts before yours. His excuse is indeed quite lame, and I'll take the company who agrees with me any day. Indeed I was generous not to also include other negative adjectives to describe it. The only point I can see you having is that I was wrong to say that he doesn't exist? (Well I actually said I don't know anyone who ____, and indeed I don't know him.)
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#55 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 18:33

The difficult decision in Iraq comes from opposing views. Obviously, there is the policy line of staying in order to maintain stability. Not everyone shares those views, as recently exhibited by Retired Lt. General Odom in front of Congress:

Quote

Odom concluded: “Naysayers insist that our withdrawal will create regional instability. This confuses cause with effect. Our forces in Iraq and our threat to change Iran’s regime are making the region unstable. Those who link instability with a U.S. withdrawal have it exactly backwards. Our ostrich strategy of keeping our heads buried in the sands of Iraq has done nothing but advance our enemies’ interest.”


All I can say is if a destablized Iraq is such a threat then we never should have destabilized it in the first place.
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#56 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 18:38

i believe you're the one misrepresenting things... you quoted part of my post and said:

jdonn, on Apr 12 2008, 11:04 AM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 12 2008, 09:28 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 11 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 11 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

some want freedom, some don't.. to say the military can't or won't avail a country whose population wants freedom (and whose military backs that position) seems fallacious to me

But isn't this country on the whole strongly opposed to the current, what shall I call it, military mission?

yes... some in different ways though... for example, some were against it originally but now know we can't just pull out overnight...

I don't know anyone whose beliefs have followed that path. As far as I can see, anyone who believes we shouldn't have been there but can't just pull out now is someone who believed we should go in at the beginning and then needed another (lame - IMO) excuse to justify their earlier belief.

arend then said:

cherdano, on Apr 12 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

Huh? I am very strongly against the Iraq war, but I also believe it would be adding another mistake to pull out over night immediately. The US does have some responsibility for the mess it created.

This doesn't mean that my opinion changed at all.

and now you say:

jdonn, on Apr 12 2008, 07:23 PM, said:

Firstly, Arend isn't someone who as you keep saying 'was' against the war but now believes we have to stay. He still is against the war!

luke warm, on Apr 12 2008, 07:05 PM, said:

cherdano, on Apr 12 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

I am very strongly against the Iraq war

See, right there in your own quotation! Big difference, hombre! So please don't tell me I'm accusing him of in any way justifying being in favor of it when he is quite clear that he is not in favor of it.

As for Trinidad, read the last few posts before yours. His excuse is indeed quite lame, and I'll take the company who agrees with me any day. Indeed I was generous not to also include other negative adjectives to describe it. The only point I can see you having is that I was wrong to say that he doesn't exist? (Well I actually said I don't know anyone who ____, and indeed I don't know him.)

in my post that you quoted i never said a person who was against the war was now in favor of it (show me where i did)... i said some who were against the war originally are not in favor of pulling out now... it's black and white above, you said "...anyone who believes we shouldn't have been there but can't just pull out now is someone who believed we should go in at the beginning and then needed another (lame - IMO) excuse to justify their earlier belief..." arend is one who was against it originally but who agree with my statement that "...for example, some were against it originally but now know we can't just pull out overnight..."

whether he is still against it or not is irrelevant to what you said and what i replied... i never even implied that one who was against it originally changed his mind and is now in favor of it because we can't just up and leave... i did say that many who were against it originally know we simply can't leave
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#57 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 19:08

luke warm, on Apr 12 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

in my post that you quoted i never said a person who was against the war was now in favor of it (show me where i did)...


Gladly.

luke warm, on Apr 12 2008, 09:28 AM, said:

some were against it originally but now know we can't just pull out overnight... some were for it originally, found out there were lies told and then became opponents...

First note the combination of your carefully chosen word but taken in conjunction with the word were.

but1
–conjunction 1. on the contrary

'Some people WERE against the war, but CONTRARY to that now believe [insert other belief here].'

You tell me, what would be contrary to being against a war? Wanting pizza for dinner that night?


But if the words aren't enough, we can also examine the context. This all started something like this, if I may paraphrase the points instead of quoting directly so things are more clear:

LW "I disagree with you, other poster [Trinidad ironically], in your implication that the military shouldn't avail a country whose population wants freedom."
JD "But how is our military availing us if most of us don't want them there?"
LW (this being the key point) "People don't want them there for different reasons though. Some WERE against the war BUT now are for it, others WERE for the war BUT are now against it."

I know, those weren't your exact words. But they were the point being made. Frankly in that context I can't think of what other point would make sense. So, sorry, but it drives me batty when people try to hide from clear implications they have made by saying "I never said that!" The only thing that makes it worse is, ahem, when they did say that!

I guess that makes this my version of a rant. Rant over.
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#58 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2008-April-12, 19:35

Quote

I guess that makes this my version of a rant. Rant over.


That was really l-a-m-e for a rant. I'm starting a remedial rant class and have one spot still open. ;)
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#59 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2008-April-13, 01:15

helene_t, on Apr 12 2008, 05:41 PM, said:

Trinidad, on Apr 12 2008, 10:20 PM, said:

As to: How is that worth it...

If you invade a country and claim to do that to improve the lives of its inhabitants you cannot possibly consider leaving the country shred to pieces and with refugees spread all over the world. You would be declaring bankruptcy on your integrity.

This is a classical fallacy. Bygones are bygones. The integrity of the US government is already bankrupt and there's nothing that can be done about that, but fortunately it's irrelevant. The question is: what are the costs and benefits of staying in Iraq, compared to the option of leaving? This is all that matters. How Iraq was before the invasion, and how it might have been in the absence of an invasion, is irrelevant.

We are not talking about taking a loss on the stock market. There, bygones are bygones. This is a matter of responsibility and liability.

If I crash your car, I can obviously not return to the situation before the crash. But you won't let me get away with: "Oh well, bygones are bygones." or "The cost of paying for your damages is higher than the benefit for me.". You will let me pay for the damage.

Rik
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Posted 2008-April-13, 06:08

Before the next generation of "Death to America" comes of age in the middle east, just withdraw and send money on a monthly basis (I figure at a billion per, you will save a bundle!)

Let the Iraqis have their country back to do with as they see fit.
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