[pclayton]

2♣ unless I'm playing with Matt where I can systemically bid 2♥.

[rbforster]

I imagine as responder with

---

most would have no problem passing the majority 2♣ bid and making 1-2 overtricks (in contrast, 2♥ is the limit of the hand in that strain).

[whereagles]

mikeh, on Apr 2 2008, 11:28 PM, said:

3♥ is silly... it conveys a fundamentally distorted view of the hand.

I'll bite. 3♥ shows 15-17 hcp and a 6 card suit, which, last time I checked, seems to be exactly what we have. Ok so the suit isn't that great. So what? Anything else would convey a much more distorted picture of the hand:

2♣ = 11-17 and at least 5-4. Has nothing to do with what I have, unless it's gazilli.
2♥ = usually 11 to bad 15, so definitely a serious underbid.
2NT = 18-19 5332. Liveable, though 1 hcp short and 1 heart longer.

So, in my opinion, and in your style of writting, anything BUT 3♥ is silly, 2NT being the least silliness.

I've said this many time, but I'll repeat. Shape & strength are far more important than tertiary stuff like placement of hcps.

[dicklont]

I bid 3♥, but I'm not happy with it.

[effervesce]

2NT for me. Why not try and make the most descriptive bid possible?

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Apr 3 2008, 01:18 AM, said:

I see, sorry I had misread the part comparing 2♣ and 2♥.

All I can say about 2NT is I used to do that, and changed purely based on my experience. It happened several times in a row that we got to 3NT when we belonged in a 6-2 major suit fit. Whatever problems people cite with 2♣ seem theoretical to me since none of them have ever happened to me. Maybe I'm just that lucky.

I really hate inventing 3-card minors on this auction, sometimes I know I have to but then I've usually got a far stronger hand.

2NT for me also.

By the way, I have also played in 3NT instead of a 6-2 major suit fit a couple of times, and now we've agreed that responder will remember to check back for a 6-2 fit if he thinks that may play better.

[mikegill]

2♣ for me. Isn't anybody else worried about wrongsiding NT with 2n? I think if I had Ax Kxxxxx Kx AQJ, I would bid 2n, but with this hand, can't partner have like Qxx or KJx in diamonds and we need NT to be declared from his side? This seems more likely than him having JTx and we need to declare from our side. If partner had bid 1n over 1h, I think 2n is probably the right bid.

[dcvetkov]

mikegill, on Apr 3 2008, 08:28 AM, said:

2♣ for me. Isn't anybody else worried about wrongsiding NT with 2n? I think if I had Ax Kxxxxx Kx AQJ, I would bid 2n, but with this hand, can't partner have like Qxx or KJx in diamonds and we need NT to be declared from his side? This seems more likely than him having JTx and we need to declare from our side. If partner had bid 1n over 1h, I think 2n is probably the right bid.

Good that I have company:) I mention 2NT wrongsiding first, so I will take credit. This time I think partner needs to declarer 3NT, and I wont mind at all if we have 6-2 H fit.

I am not in love with 2C, but like 2NT just a little less

[mike777]

tough one

2clubs

I will risk missing playing 3nt? if pard has around 8 hcp and a stiff h.
Will rebid 4h over 2h by responder and take the pressure off of pard.

But understand the correct technical rebid of 3H, we could have 2 or 3 trump losers.

[pclayton]

mikegill, on Apr 3 2008, 05:28 AM, said:

2♣ for me.  Isn't anybody else worried about wrongsiding NT with 2n?  I think if I had Ax Kxxxxx Kx AQJ, I would bid 2n, but with this hand, can't partner have like Qxx or KJx in diamonds and we need NT to be declared from his side?  This seems more likely than him having JTx and we need to declare from our side.  If partner had bid 1n over 1h, I think 2n is probably the right bid.

It's debatable that this hand doesn't want to declare NT. Ax is frequently better from our side.

Besides, we are playing it.

I'm sticking with 2♣. My "forum" partner won't pass 2♣ except under dire circumstances.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Apr 3 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

tough one

2clubs

I will risk missing playing 3nt? if pard has around 8 hcp and a stiff h.
Will rebid 4h over 2h by responder and take the pressure off of pard.

But understand the correct technical rebid of 3H, we could have 2 or 3 trump losers.

3♥ is not the technical bid, Mike. It is an option (I think, a silly one) but it is not technically correct... nor, of course, are any of the calls. That's why this is a problem... the hand doesn't fit the technical requirements of any call available to us.

Very, very few experts ever jump rebid suits like this.. there have been examples of this hand type in the Master Solvers in the BW for many years, and the jump rebid is never popular.

Good players will often raise 3Major to 4Major on a stiff, on hands on which some non-experts bid 3N. The major suit raise, which is usually the correct bid on the hands in question, works only because 3M promises a good suit... when the hcp are primarily outside the suit, 3N will usually be better.

This is the main reason, in my view, why 3♥ is wrong... it will often get us to the wrong game, and it gets us there with partner's next bid... so that we can never undo the damage. Of course, it may also get us to a slam where partner foolishly thinks Qx is great support... he may discover the missing Ace, but he'll always play us for KJ109xx or so.

Neither 2N nor 3♣ are panaceas but the expert consensus here appears to be that either is better than 3♥

[mike777]

mikeh, on Apr 3 2008, 10:21 AM, said:

mike777, on Apr 3 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

tough one

2clubs

I will risk missing playing 3nt? if pard has around 8 hcp and a stiff h.
Will rebid 4h over 2h by responder and take the pressure off of pard.

But understand the correct technical rebid of 3H, we could have 2 or 3 trump losers.

3♥ is not the technical bid, Mike. It is an option (I think, a silly one) but it is not technically correct... nor, of course, are any of the calls. That's why this is a problem... the hand doesn't fit the technical requirements of any call available to us.

Very, very few experts ever jump rebid suits like this.. there have been examples of this hand type in the Master Solvers in the BW for many years, and the jump rebid is never popular.

Good players will often raise 3Major to 4Major on a stiff, on hands on which some non-experts bid 3N. The major suit raise, which is usually the correct bid on the hands in question, works only because 3M promises a good suit... when the hcp are primarily outside the suit, 3N will usually be better.

This is the main reason, in my view, why 3♥ is wrong... it will often get us to the wrong game, and it gets us there with partner's next bid... so that we can never undo the damage. Of course, it may also get us to a slam where partner foolishly thinks Qx is great support... he may discover the missing Ace, but he'll always play us for KJ109xx or so.

Neither 2N nor 3♣ are panaceas but the expert consensus here appears to be that either is better than 3♥

MikeH

I meant 3h is the technically correct rebid over 2h rebid by responder but as I mentioned I would rebid 4h to take the pressure off of pard. I am bidding 2c over 1s