[irdoz]

I can't remember a time when 'should of' (though it usually means should've, it sounds like should of) and 'shoulda' weren't often used by Australians of all ages - so I don't think this is an 'only in North America' thing.

[goobers]

"Anyways" is like "irregardless". Shouldn't exist, but it does.

Hahaha, I really liked the urbandictionary definition, "more than one anyway"

[jdonn]

Pet peeve: I hate how 'excuse me' has become 'scuse me'. I fear that will become standard mis-usage soon as well.

[Echognome]

jdonn, on Apr 3 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

Pet peeve: I hate how 'excuse me' has become 'scuse me'. I fear that will become standard mis-usage soon as well.

Who knows? The term "smell 'ya later" might replace all the other terms used to say good-bye.

[finally17]

Currently my biggest pet peeve is that there is a certain region of the United States (I haven't tried to fully identify it but southern Illinois is included) where many speakers use the word "whenever" in place of "when" universally.

"Whenever you go to the grocery store, get some milk."

This should mean "always buy milk when at the grocery store" but these speakers mean "next time you to go to the store, buy milk." And they make this substitution in all cases, still using "whenever" in its proper sense.

[barmar]

Practically all the words we use today were misuses like these at some time in the past. Language is constantly changing, and popular mispronunciation is one of the most common ways that this happens.

[blackshoe]

barmar, on Apr 4 2008, 08:36 PM, said:

Practically all the words we use today were misuses like these at some time in the past.  Language is constantly changing, and popular mispronunciation is one of the most common ways that this happens.

Indeed.

One of my favorite scenes in fiction occurs in one of Rex Stout's "Nero Wolfe" mysteries, written, iirc, back in the 1930's. Wolfe, the great detective, is sitting in his office, in front of the fireplace, his brand new Webster's Second International Unabridged Dictionary on his lap. He is ripping pages out of the book, and throwing them in the fire. His assistant, Archie Goodwin, walks in, see this, and asks what he's doing. Wolfe looks up, a scowl on his face, and says "'Contact' is not a verb!"

[luke warm]

blackshoe, on Apr 4 2008, 09:10 PM, said:

barmar, on Apr 4 2008, 08:36 PM, said:

Practically all the words we use today were misuses like these at some time in the past.  Language is constantly changing, and popular mispronunciation is one of the most common ways that this happens.

Indeed.

One of my favorite scenes in fiction occurs in one of Rex Stout's "Nero Wolfe" mysteries, written, iirc, back in the 1930's. Wolfe, the great detective, is sitting in his office, in front of the fireplace, his brand new Webster's Second International Unabridged Dictionary on his lap. He is ripping pages out of the book, and throwing them in the fire. His assistant, Archie Goodwin, walks in, see this, and asks what he's doing. Wolfe looks up, a scowl on his face, and says "'Contact' is not a verb!"

i don't remember which book it was, but i read that one... aamof i read all the nero wolfe books

[kenberg]

bid_em_up, on Apr 2 2008, 01:57 PM, said:

mycroft, on Apr 2 2008, 11:35 AM, said:

A lot of "low class American" expressions are exactly that - because strangely enough, a lot of Americans in the founding centuries, before the Great Unpleasantness in the 18th Century, were low class British.  And it didn't pay to seem aristocratic in the Great Experiment afterward, so the high-born (well, high-born Northerners, at least) affected the voice of the people.

That reminds me....

A girl from the South and a girl from the North were seated side by side on a plane. The girl from the South, being friendly and all, said, "So, where ya'll from?"

The Northern girl said, "From a place where they know better than to use a preposition at the end of a sentence."

The girl from the South sat quietly for a few moments and then replied, "So, where ya'll from, bitch?"

Had I been a little quicker on my feet I could have used this.

I was a beginning player, back before bidding boxes were common. The auction opened on my left and when it got to me I turned to my lho and said "What was your bid? I missed it." She informed me that the correct way to ask is "What was your call?". Ah yes, "What was your call, bitch?" would have done nicely.

I think my view of errors in speaking English is somewhat like my view of children in restaurants. In the latter case, we have all had children and I understand from experience that they can be difficult to control. I expect the parents to look like they are making an effort. So it is with language. Perfection is not expected, either of myself or others, but effort is appreciated.

[barmar]

kenberg, on Apr 5 2008, 09:42 AM, said:

I think my view of errors in speaking English is somewhat like my view of children in restaurants. In the latter case, we have all had children and I understand from experience that they can be difficult to control. I expect the parents to look like they are making an effort. So it is with language. Perfection is not expected, either of myself or others, but effort is appreciated.

If it's common to say "anyways" in your language community, then it's not an error. To a northerner "y'all" may sound wrong, but it's just a normal word to a southerner -- NOT using it would mark you as an outsider. Similarly, there are communities where "ain't", as well as double negatives like "ain't got no", are correct usage.

Regarding double negatives, this is something that easily changes in languages. Modern French has this as a standard part of its grammar: ne verb pas. But it wasn't part of Old French, which just used "ne" as the negative. "Pas" meant "step", and it was used for emphasis, as in "ne marche pas" meaning "doesn't walk a step" (this is similar to English phrases like "doesn't move a muscle", "can't drink a drop"). Eventually it became idiomatic, and now both "ne" and "pas" both mean negation, and the double negative is officially allowed.

Analogously, to an urban language speaker, "ain't got no" isn't really a double negative, it's just an idiomatic way to say "don't have any".

[dburn]

finally17, on Apr 1 2008, 08:53 PM, said:

Cascade, on Apr 1 2008, 08:00 PM, said:

Where does the slang "anyways" come from?

My spell checker rejects it as a word but it seems to be in common usage especially among North Americans.

If it is supposed to be just a spelling variation it is the opposite of other North American adaptations of English in that it adds an extra unnecessary letter rather than removing a letter (or more) e.g. color compared with the English colour.

It's not just the opposite of the American English norm; it's a general although not strict rule that words get shorter but not longer.

The American's a hustler, for he says so,
And surely the American must know.
He will prove to you with figures why it pays so
Beginning with his boyhood long ago.
When the slow-maturing anecdote is ripest,
He'll dictate it like a Board of Trade Report,
And because he has no time to call a typist,
He calls her a Stenographer for short.

He is never known to loiter or malinger,
He rushes, for he knows he has a "date";
He is always on the spot and full of ginger,
Which is why he is invariably late.
When he guesses that it's getting even later,
His vocabulary's vehement and swift,
And he yells for what he calls an Elevator,
A slang abbreviation for a lift.

Then nothing can be nattier or nicer
For those who like a light and rapid style
Than to trifle with a work of Mr Dreiser
As it comes along in waggons by the mile.
He has taught us what a swift selective art meant
By description of his dinners and all that,
And his dwelling, which he says is an Apartment,
Because he cannot stop to say a flat.

We may whisper of his wild precipitation,
That its speed is rather longer than a span,
But there really is a definite occasion
When he does not use the longest word he can.
When he substitutes, I freely make admission,
One shorter and much easier to spell:
If you ask him what he thinks of Prohibition,
He will tell you quite succinctly it is Hell.

Ogden Nash

anyways, adv. and conj.

1. adv. In any way, in any respect, at all.

c1560 Bk. Comm. Prayer All those who are any ways afflicted... in mind, body, or estate.

1638 PRESTON Mount Ebal 10 As the Rudder of a ship, which turnes it any wayes.

1673 RAY Jrny. thro' Low Countries Ded. If either Catalogue or Observations prove any ways useful.

1794 SOUTHEY Wat Tyler III. i, Who may have been anyways concerned in the late insurrections.

1834 DE QUINCEY Cæsars Wks. X. 61 Nor was such an interference... anyways injurious.

2. advb. conj. In any case, at all events, anyhow. dial. or illiterate.

Oxford English Dictionary

[barmar]

By the way, an excellent book on the ways that languages have evolved (where I learned about the "ne ... pas" origin) is The Power of Babel: A Natural History of Language, by John McWhorter.

[kenberg]

barmar, on Apr 5 2008, 11:11 PM, said:

kenberg, on Apr 5 2008, 09:42 AM, said:

I think my view of errors in speaking English is somewhat like my view of children in restaurants. In the latter case, we have all had children and I understand from experience that they can be difficult to control. I expect the parents to look like they are making an effort. So it is with language. Perfection is not expected, either of myself or others, but effort is appreciated.

If it's common to say "anyways" in your language community, then it's not an error. To a northerner "y'all" may sound wrong, but it's just a normal word to a southerner -- NOT using it would mark you as an outsider. Similarly, there are communities where "ain't", as well as double negatives like "ain't got no", are correct usage.

Regarding double negatives, this is something that easily changes in languages. Modern French has this as a standard part of its grammar: ne verb pas. But it wasn't part of Old French, which just used "ne" as the negative. "Pas" meant "step", and it was used for emphasis, as in "ne marche pas" meaning "doesn't walk a step" (this is similar to English phrases like "doesn't move a muscle", "can't drink a drop"). Eventually it became idiomatic, and now both "ne" and "pas" both mean negation, and the double negative is officially allowed.

Analogously, to an urban language speaker, "ain't got no" isn't really a double negative, it's just an idiomatic way to say "don't have any".

I don't view common usage and correct usage as the same. No matter how many people lay down when they are tired, it's correct to lie down when you are tired. My father came to this country when he was ten, finished eighth grade in Nebraska, and went to work. If he could learn to lie down instead of lay down, it seems that someone with a college degree could do likewise. Many don't.

I recognize that "ain't got no" is accepted, maybe even expected, in some communities. When I was 13 or so I practiced such usage (it took effort, I knew better) since it was pretty common at my high school. I got past this, just as I got past pretending that I didn't know the answers to questions. (I still pretended that I didn't like to read until a teacher caught me in the library and razzed me mercilessly). If a person plans to make a living tightening bolts on an assembly line, "ain't got no" will do fine. If he plans on a career that requires conversation with educated people, I suggest that he learn to say "don't have any". I suppose if you are talented enough at a job, you can speak in any fool way you choose and people will overlook it. For the rest of us, decent English can keep some doors from slamming shut.

[barmar]

For those of you who like your etymology and philology with a little sex appeal, I discovered www.hotforwords.com this week (she's also a regular on YouTube). How often can you claim that a guilty pleasure is educational?

[jtfanclub]

What's so funny about this to me is...

I believe it started as Anywise, just like Otherwise, which can be used in the same places...

"Do we have enough milk? I'm going to the store anywise" (regardless of the answer)
"Do we have enough milk? I'm, going to the store otherwise" (if the answer is no)

"Is Tim coming to the wedding? Anywise, it should be a fun party."
"Is Tim coming to the wedding? Otherwise, it should be a fun party."

So Anywise becomes Anyways which becomes Anyway, and now people are complaining because people stop using the improper English and go towards the original, correct English.

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Apr 8 2008, 12:03 PM, said:

I believe it started as Anywise, just like Otherwise, which can be used in the same places...

Do you have any evidence or proof of that? I have none going the other way either, but somehow it seems unlikely to me.

Even if it had started as 'anywise' and became 'anyway', there is no proof it was ever 'anyways' in between. So I don't see why you refer to that as "original, correct English". It is neither original, nor necessarily correct, nor are you even sure it was ever English.

[jtfanclub]

jdonn, on Apr 8 2008, 12:40 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Apr 8 2008, 12:03 PM, said:

I believe it started as Anywise, just like Otherwise, which can be used in the same places...

Do you have any evidence or proof of that? I have none going the other way either, but somehow it seems unlikely to me.

http://www.randomhou...l?date=20001030
http://www.merriam-w...tionary/anyways
http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/04/...wind-blows.html

I suspect that there are parts of Britain that would pronounce them both "onnywoise", so when I hear two words that sounds the same and have the same meaning, I suspect they have the same origin.

It's kind of odd, because "way", meaning a road (eg. highway), is a completely different origin from "wise", meaning to choose. But I suspect that that "Always" comes from "All choices", not "All roads". It's all Daniel Webster's fault.

Anywise was the original correct Middle English. I have no idea if there was ever a 'middle ground' where it was anyways, but certainly in spoken English Anyways is closer to Anywise than Anyway is.

[jdonn]

I stand corrected, I think. Don't have time to read links, but I assume you aren't bluffing