[flytoox]

vul: both

you hold:
S: AKT72
H: Q842
D: 753
C: 7

W N E S
-- - - P
P 1D P 1S
2C P P ?

without much discussion about the details, only agreed to play 2/1, do you dbl or bid 2H?

[luke warm]

i think x... pard probably (who knows for sure?) isn't close to reverse range with 4 hearts, probably doesn't have 6 diamonds, and definitely doesn't have 4 spades (most likely not even 3)... i think he has clubs and diamonds, heck maybe even 4/5 in the minors... if so, an x gives you an additional chance to go positive when he leaves it in... also, if he doesn't have clubs he'll rebid diamonds or maybe support spades with 2

[Free]

Dbl. With 4 Hearts and/or 3 Spades, he'd Doubled himself. He has ♣s. Just open this hand 1♠ plz

[flytoox]

Free, on Mar 18 2004, 12:42 PM, said:

Dbl.  With 4 Hearts and/or 3 Spades, he'd Doubled himself.  He has ♣s.  Just open this hand 1♠ plz 

Hehe, Free, even you put a gun at my head I wont open it:)

[flytoox]

A question regardng dbl. If dbl is takeout, likely a hand with 5s4h, then what 2h should mean? Does it promise 5card H?

[WGF_Flame]

flytoox, on Mar 18 2004, 08:28 AM, said:

A question regardng dbl. If dbl is takeout, likely a hand with 5s4h, then what 2h should mean? Does it promise 5card H?

Not exactly.
2h doesnt promiss 5 card hearts .
the different between D and 2h is that D is more defensive oriented while 2h is more offensive oriented, yes for that resson 2h will have 5 hearts many times, and double will never have 5 hearts. also when u double you give p the option to leave this double with a suitable hand, this mean u should try not to double if leaving it would be a disaster.
also double leave the option to p to bid 2d.
this is the "normal" way to play it, but doesnt have to be the best.

[WGF_Flame]

flytoox, on Mar 18 2004, 08:26 AM, said:

Free, on Mar 18 2004, 12:42 PM, said:

Dbl.  With 4 Hearts and/or 3 Spades, he'd Doubled himself.  He has ♣s.  Just open this hand 1♠ plz 

Hehe, Free, even you put a gun at my head I wont open it:)

1sp is good using zar points. I would be happy to open it , but wouldnt if it would make p unhappy.

[hrothgar]

Free, on Mar 18 2004, 03:42 PM, said:

Dbl.  With 4 Hearts and/or 3 Spades, he'd Doubled himself.  He has ♣s.  Just open this hand 1♠ plz 

While I agree that this hand should be opened, I would never do so playing 2/1.
Repeat after me: "2/1 is a SOUND opening system"

In any case, on to the problem at hand.

Partner was unable to make a support doubleor raise Spades.
Ergo, he has 0-2 Spades.

Partner was unwilling to rebid Diamonds.
Ergo, he has 4-5 Diamonds.

This leaves partner with a limited number of hand types.
He's either

1. Balanced with 2443 or 2344 shape
2. Two suited with both minors
3. Two suited with Diamonds and Hearts
4. Three suited with 1444 / 0454 / 0445 shape

Double looks to be the most flexible bid.
We'll defend when correct [Given RHO's pass, I'm expecting that we'll defend].

If partner shows Hearts, I can comfortably bid 4H (my stiff club is golden)

[inquiry]

hrothgar, on Mar 18 2004, 11:04 AM, said:

While I agree that this hand should be opened, I would never do so playing 2/1.
Repeat after me: "2/1 is a SOUND opening system"

Repeat after me, if you have to have SOUND openings playing 2/1, they you are going to lose in the long run.... :-)

[hrothgar]

inquiry, on Mar 18 2004, 09:47 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Mar 18 2004, 11:04 AM, said:

While I agree that this hand should be opened, I would never do so playing 2/1.
Repeat after me:  "2/1 is a SOUND opening system"

Repeat after me, if you have to have SOUND openings playing 2/1, they you are going to lose in the long run.... :-)

Repeat after me: "Hrothgar does not play 2/1, except when his partner's insist"

In all seriousness, I don't think that traditional 2/1 styles are long for this world.

From my perspective, consensus attitudes regarding the strength required for an opening bid are steadily decreasing with time. In turn, this creates enormous pressure for players using a 2/1 game forcing style. As your opening bid gets weak, the % chance that responder can unconditionally force to game declines enormously.

This is why you see so many pairs adopting "gimmicks" like a drury like 2♣ response to major suit openings and the like. From my perspective, these hybrid systems can't really be considered 2/1.

Me, I suggest cutting out the middleman and jumping straight to MOSCITO :-)

[Cascade]

flytoox, on Mar 18 2004, 10:28 AM, said:

A question regardng dbl. If dbl is takeout, likely a hand with 5s4h, then what 2h should mean? Does it promise 5card H?

I might bid 2♥ with only a four-card suit if I did not have diamond tolerance. I probably have a little extra strength to do that. Without extra strength since partner did not double there is little point in competing.

[inquiry]

WGF_Flame, on Mar 18 2004, 10:37 AM, said:

flytoox, on Mar 18 2004, 08:26 AM, said:

Free, on Mar 18 2004, 12:42 PM, said:

Dbl.  With 4 Hearts and/or 3 Spades, he'd Doubled himself.  He has ♣s.  Just open this hand 1♠ plz 

Hehe, Free, even you put a gun at my head I wont open it:)

1sp is good using zar points. I would be happy to open it , but wouldnt if it would make p unhappy.

Actually, by ZAR points this is a 25 point hand, not a 26 point hand. So it would be a point shy by ZAR standards.

Partner did open in 3rd seat and so may not have that much... but I think a double of 2♣ here is standout. If partner bids 2♠, 2♥ or 2♦ you are fine with that. If partner jumps to any of the above you are equally happy (you will bid game then I guess), and if partner decides to defend, you can deal with that too, after all you have two quick tricks, and a potentially useful ♥Q. I like dbl over 2♥ because we can get out in 2♦.

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Mar 18 2004, 08:19 PM, said:

I like dbl over 2♥ because we can get out in 2♦.

I think this is the key, because you can tolerate with d, quite comfort with it actually.

Suppose it continues:

W N E S
-------- P
P 1D P 1S
2C P P X
P 2S 3C ?

WHAT DO YOU BID NOW?

[hrothgar]

Looks like partner has 2 spades

I'm hitting them again.

If I had to guess, I would bet the following

My shape = 5431
CHO's shape = 2344
RHO's shape = 4135
LHO's shape = 2533

Looks like a good hand to defend

[inquiry]

1) I don't think partner has 2♠, for if he had 2♠, he would have options to bid 2♦ or 2♥. I think Richards guess at partner having 2♠ is the ASSUMPTION you are playing support doubles. Without discussion, I would not assume support doubles were played.

2) A double again here is ok, if partner would take it as a second takout, but I think this would at least optional, if not penalty now. This is not the hand for it, imho. If it was TAKEOUT, I might consider it.

3) For ♠ I have a great hand for a passed hand. With this in mind, I would bid game if parnter had opened in 1st, 2nd, or 4th seat. I am not liking the idea of hanging a partner for a light opening bid in third seat, so I am only going to invite here. But in my mind, 3♠ doesn't sound strong enough of an invite for my hand. I want to be in game opposite any "real" opening bid, even some yuck 11 and 12 hcp hands. So I am going to bid 3♥. Partner will know I have 5♠, and that I am making a game try. The intial double suggested toleracne for ♦, so my hand should be clear. Near opener (25 ZAR Points after all), 5♠, 4♥, short ♣. He will know what to do with some yucky minimums like... ♠Qxx ♥Kx ♦AQJTxx Cxxx. If you bid only 3♠, partner will pass most light serious opening bids.

Ben

[WGF_Flame]

inquiry, on Mar 18 2004, 03:19 PM, said:

WGF_Flame, on Mar 18 2004, 10:37 AM, said:

flytoox, on Mar 18 2004, 08:26 AM, said:

Free, on Mar 18 2004, 12:42 PM, said:

Dbl.  With 4 Hearts and/or 3 Spades, he'd Doubled himself.  He has ♣s.  Just open this hand 1♠ plz 

Hehe, Free, even you put a gun at my head I wont open it:)

1sp is good using zar points. I would be happy to open it , but wouldnt if it would make p unhappy.

Actually, by ZAR points this is a 25 point hand, not a 26 point hand. So it would be a point shy by ZAR standards.

with Zar point you open 25 zar points with spades.

[Free]

Exactly, so you may add 1 point, making it 26, you should read the entire article Ben

[inquiry]

I read the entire article FREE, but the invisible master ♠ suit point doesn't win a trick. The ♥ suit is weak. Pass seems right to me. One doesn't have to agree with everything written... :-)

[Trpltrbl]

2♥. Very close to opening 1♠ with ZAR points. I think I will most of the time.

Mike