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8-Card Major Support

#1 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-March-23, 20:26

A friend of mine was recently dealt this hand:

IMPs, All Red, Fourth Seat

♠x ♥Qxxxxxxx ♦xx ♣Ax

(1♣)-1♥-(1♠)-?
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#2 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-23, 20:36

I guess i'd bid 5H
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#3 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-March-23, 21:04

1NT wtp?
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-23, 21:07

5H sounds good, played with the idea of walking the dog with 4H but I won't be able to get them to double 5H anyway.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-March-23, 21:09

You can try so many things with this hand and it will work out OK. 4♥, 5♥, 2♥ and even pass can be right.

I suppose I'd bid 5♥ because its my style.
"Phil" on BBO
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#6 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-March-23, 21:12

Seriously I really hate going to the four-level when I have a reasonable chance of winning the auction at the four-level.

Nothing in the opponent's bidding so far suggests they are going to 4♠.

At the table I am going to bid 4♥ or something much lower.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#7 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-23, 21:51

Cascade, on Mar 23 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

Nothing in the opponent's bidding so far suggests they are going to 4♠.

The fact that they have 0 hearts between them does. The fact that they have 8+ spades between them does. The fact that they have enough values to open and respond does.

I mean do you really believe this? I bet if you do one of your simulations that in 100 hands there is no hand that they will not bid on over a 4H bid.
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#8 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-March-23, 23:30

Jlall, on Mar 24 2008, 04:51 PM, said:

Cascade, on Mar 23 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

Nothing in the opponent's bidding so far suggests they are going to 4♠.

The fact that they have 0 hearts between them does. The fact that they have 8+ spades between them does. The fact that they have enough values to open and respond does.

I mean do you really believe this? I bet if you do one of your simulations that in 100 hands there is no hand that they will not bid on over a 4H bid.

Won't that depend on the auction?
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#9 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2008-March-23, 23:55

Jlall, on Mar 23 2008, 09:36 PM, said:

I guess i'd bid 5H

Had a hand like this last week, bid 5♥. Next player passed, and partner decided it must be a slam try and bid six. The opponents were so shocked that they forgot to double, and down 3 undoubled beat their game or down two doubled for a good score.

Usually I'm on the losing end of those....
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#10 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-24, 00:37

Cascade, on Mar 24 2008, 12:30 AM, said:

Jlall, on Mar 24 2008, 04:51 PM, said:

Cascade, on Mar 23 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

Nothing in the opponent's bidding so far suggests they are going to 4♠.

The fact that they have 0 hearts between them does. The fact that they have 8+ spades between them does. The fact that they have enough values to open and respond does.

I mean do you really believe this? I bet if you do one of your simulations that in 100 hands there is no hand that they will not bid on over a 4H bid.

Won't that depend on the auction?

I specified "over a 4H bid" since you said you would bid 4H or something lower.

I think that bidding 4H for the sake of buying it in 4H is ridiculous (if for some other tactical reason then fine, but you said earlier you thought you had a reasonable chance of buying it at the 4 level).

I cannot reconcile bidding 4H with having a reasonable chance of buying it at the 4 level. And unless you are playing against brain dead people I think there is no chance you will buy it in 4H no matter what you do... they are BOTH void (ok, some chance one of them has a singleton but you get the point), they have some points, they have either a big fit or a double fit (or a triple fit). I think the right way to beat brain dead opps is to keep pressuring them with high level decisions again and again and again, not to try and cuebid or something and hope they sell out to 4H because I really think that will happen like never.
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#11 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 01:05

5♥ for me.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#12 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 01:11

Cascade, on Mar 23 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

Seriously I really hate going to the four-level when I have a reasonable chance of winning the auction at the four-level.

I agree with that (you meant going to the five level, right?), but it seems totally clear here there is no chance of that happening, or at least less than a reasonable chance. So I'm sold on 5♥ here, something I generally think is overdone.

The 'clever' lower bids only work in certain unlikely cases where the auction hides the size of your support (and even then the voids are roaming here...) In all other cases you are forced to expose what you are up to and you have only hurt yourself.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#13 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 02:06

7♥, the law is king :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

*duck* *run*
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#14 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 02:12

the only two times i've seen this happen, p's 1M call was a psych

at the table i probably 5H or get creative with a splinter or a fit-jump.
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#15 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 03:59

3NT, this is the best way to buy the contract, we have 9 top tricks, so just need some stoppers around or a wrong lead.
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#16 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 04:18

jdonn, on Mar 24 2008, 08:11 PM, said:

Cascade, on Mar 23 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

Seriously I really hate going to the four-level when I have a reasonable chance of winning the auction at the four-level.

I agree with that (you meant going to the five level, right?),

yes i did.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#17 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 05:21

han, on Mar 24 2008, 03:07 AM, said:

played with the idea of walking the dog with 4H but I won't be able to get them to double 5H anyway.

You can walk the dog in another way. Opps are pretty likely to have 6♠, and will probably bid it if you push them.

So pass(!!!) this hand and wait to see if they bid the slam on their own. If they do, save in 7♥. Else let them play their 4♠+2.

Note this approach will also tell if pard's been joking. If opps start bidding NT, then pard was obviously joking :rolleyes: Of course, you'd be accused of cheating if pard does happen to show up with a singleton heart.. :rolleyes:
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#18 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 05:24

Having bid a few hands with GIB it is surprising to me how often we get doubled in 5♥ when the opponents have something better. This particularly happens when they have a 5=3 spade fit. I think real opponents will have similar problems.

When we did not get doubled bidding 4♥ (and competing to 5♥), bidding 5♥ or mucking around with some other bid all seemed to lead to a decision over 5♠ or higher.

So 5♥ seems to have an advantage and the other things I tried did not have a noticeable advantage. Probably this is because the space was more useful to the opponents. I didn't try a cue-raise and couldn't try a mini-splinter given GIBs system. These might be better occasionally as they involve partner.

Who knows ...

For now just another one to add to my book of hands where a pre-empt is better than a psyche.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#19 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 08:13

matmat, on Mar 24 2008, 12:12 AM, said:

the only two times i've seen this happen, p's 1M call was a psych

at the table i probably 5H or get creative with a splinter or a fit-jump.

Heard a story about a psyched weak 2♥ with 7 diamonds.

2♥ (dbl) 3♥ pass
4♦ pass 4♥ double
5♦ pass 5♥ double

He didn't know what to do and finally passed. Pard put down trump support of EIGHT solid.
"Phil" on BBO
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#20 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 11:39

pclayton, on Mar 24 2008, 10:13 AM, said:

psyched weak 2♥ with 7 diamonds.

2♥ (dbl) 3♥ pass
4♦ pass 4♥ double
5♦ pass 5♥ double

He didn't know what to do and finally passed. Pard put down trump support of EIGHT solid.

Why is preemptor running from 3♥ undoubled? If he's going to psych he should at least be smart about it.
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