[dogsbreath]

In a recent BBO table game (IMPS scoring), with opps silent, bidding goes ..
P, P, P,1C
P, 1H, P,1NT
p, 2D, p, ?

playing 'NMF' is 2D systemically forcing, or subject to p'ship agreement?
(do y bid on with Qx, Jx, AQxx, A109xx ??)

..Looks like a bad time to play NMF but hey! 4-2 fits can be fun
I passed .. p displeased )

Regards Dogsbreath

[luis]

Open 1d and rebid 2c.
If you open 2-2-4-5 hands with 13HCP with 1c then it's your problem what to do now.
If you refuse to open with 4d and 5c 1d then at least rebid 2c and not 1NT.
You have 9 cards in the minors and so far you showed 3.

[flytoox]

luis, on Mar 8 2004, 02:58 PM, said:

Open 1d and rebid 2c.
If you open 2-2-4-5 hands with 13HCP with 1c then it's your problem what to do now.
If you refuse to open with 4d and 5c 1d then at least rebid 2c and not 1NT.
You have 9 cards in the minors and so far you showed 3.

I think he shows at least 7, luis. He didnt bid 1s, nor a raise to 2H.

[flytoox]

dogsbreath, on Mar 8 2004, 02:53 PM, said:

In a recent BBO table game (IMPS scoring), with opps silent, bidding goes ..
P, P, P,1C
P, 1H, P,1NT
p, 2D, p, ?

playing 'NMF' is 2D systemically forcing, or subject to p'ship agreement?
(do y bid on with Qx, Jx, AQxx, A109xx ??)

..Looks like a bad time to play NMF but hey! 4-2 fits can be fun
I passed .. p displeased )

Regards Dogsbreath

I think 2D should be nonforcing, and I will pass here, same as you.

[inquiry]

Nothing much by a passed hand is "forcing", since the hand is already limited. On this auction the new minor is a suggest of an alternative place to play the hand.

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

Nice hand to play 2 way NMF. I tend to agree that a passed hand can't really force anything, but I do play NMF or 2 way in that situation, showing like a max passed hand 11 maybe even 12 HCP and it is forcing upto 2 NT. But if you open 1 ♦ you don't have these problems as much.

Mike

[EricK]

luis, on Mar 8 2004, 02:58 PM, said:

Open 1d and rebid 2c.
If you open 2-2-4-5 hands with 13HCP with 1c then it's your problem what to do now.
If you refuse to open with 4d and 5c 1d then at least rebid 2c and not 1NT.
You have 9 cards in the minors and so far you showed 3.

This argument (about showing 9 cards instead of 3 or 4) always strikes me as suspect.

eg swap the suits around, and you don't see those people who advocate it opening 1♥ on eg ♠Jx ♥AQxx ♦AT9xxx ♣Qx. They would think you crazy if you did anything other than open 1♦ and rebid 1NT over 1♠.

So at best the argument is incomplete. (A similar thing happens if you ask people why they use 5 card majors - the arguments they give generally have even more force if they were to play 6 card majors but you don't see them advocating that!)

Eric

[mishovnbg]

EricK, on Mar 9 2004, 07:15 AM, said:

luis, on Mar 8 2004, 02:58 PM, said:

Open 1d and rebid 2c.
If you open 2-2-4-5 hands with 13HCP with 1c then it's your problem what to do now.
If you refuse to open with 4d and 5c 1d then at least rebid 2c and not 1NT.
You have 9 cards in the minors and so far you showed 3.

This argument (about showing 9 cards instead of 3 or 4) always strikes me as suspect.

eg swap the suits around, and you don't see those people who advocate it opening 1♥ on eg ♠Jx ♥AQxx ♦AT9xxx ♣Qx. They would think you crazy if you did anything other than open 1♦ and rebid 1NT over 1♠.

So at best the argument is incomplete. (A similar thing happens if you ask people why they use 5 card majors - the arguments they give generally have even more force if they were to play 6 card majors but you don't see them advocating that!)

Eric

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Hi Eric!

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To me is difficult to decide what to bid wit 13 cards, what to say about your 14 cards example

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You probably never meet players who play canape systems and will advocate opening 1♥ with ♠Jx ♥AQxx ♦AT9xx ♣Qx?

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One of the best natural systems WJ2000, based on opinion of majority polish experts, open 1♦ with 4♦-5♣. One of the best pairs in the world Bocchi-Duboin open 1♦ with 4♦-5♣. One of the best bulgarian pairs Rumen-Kalin open 1♦ with 4♦-5♣. When world class player like Luis was so nice to introduce his opinion before to suspect is much more sensible to ask him to explain and probably you will receive his answer, like many beginners in longue .

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Probably is not so hard to find arguments to play 5 cards major opening, if 75% of top players play same way. Even italians, who played many years canape systems like roman club, already swiched to 5 majors. They probably was tired playing 4-2 major fits so many time, despite they are famous declarers .

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Misho

[EricK]

mishovnbg, on Mar 9 2004, 10:08 AM, said:

EricK, on Mar 9 2004, 07:15 AM, said:

luis, on Mar 8 2004, 02:58 PM, said:

Open 1d and rebid 2c.
If you open 2-2-4-5 hands with 13HCP with 1c then it's your problem what to do now.
If you refuse to open with 4d and 5c 1d then at least rebid 2c and not 1NT.
You have 9 cards in the minors and so far you showed 3.

This argument (about showing 9 cards instead of 3 or 4) always strikes me as suspect.

eg swap the suits around, and you don't see those people who advocate it opening 1♥ on eg ♠Jx ♥AQxx ♦AT9xxx ♣Qx. They would think you crazy if you did anything other than open 1♦ and rebid 1NT over 1♠.

So at best the argument is incomplete. (A similar thing happens if you ask people why they use 5 card majors - the arguments they give generally have even more force if they were to play 6 card majors but you don't see them advocating that!)

Eric

Spoiler

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Hi Eric!

Spoiler

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To me is tifficult to decide what to bid wit 13 cards, what to say about your 14 cards example

Spoiler

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You probably never meet players who play canape systems and will advocate opening 1♥ with ♠Jx ♥AQxx ♦AT9xx ♣Qx?

Spoiler

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One of the best natural systems WJ2000, based on opinion of majority polish experts, open 1♦ with 4♦-5♣. One of the best pairs in the world Bocchi-Duboin open 1♦ with 4♦-5♣. One of the best bulgarian pairs Rumen-Kalin open 1♦ with 4♦-5♣. When world class player like Luis was so nice to introduce his opinion before to suspect is much more sensible to ask him to explain and probably you will receive his answer, like many beginners in longue .

Spoiler

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Probably is not so hard to find arguments to play 5 cards major opening, if 75% of top players play same way. Even italians, who played many years canape systems like roman club, already swiched to 5 majors. They probably was tired playing 4-2 major fits so many time, despite they are famous declarers .

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Misho

Thanks Misho,

Sorry about the 14 card hand!

I wasn't denying that it is a good idea to open 4-5 minor hands with 1♦, nor was I saying that opening 5 card majors is a bad idea. What I was complaining about are the arguments put forward to justify these things.

eg One argument you see for 5 card majors is that responder can happily support with 3 cards knowing about an 8 card fit, whereas with 4 card majors there is a danger of playing in a 4-3 fit. Obviously there is now a similar "argument" justifying playing 6 card majors (responder can now safely raise with 2 card support, whereas playing 5 card majors he can not). What this shows is not that 6 card majors are a good idea, nor that 5 card majors are a bad idea, but simply that the argument given was not really good enough.

Eric

[mishovnbg]

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Hi Eric!

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I will try to be serious this time... I played enough with 4 cards majors. I study bridge playing Culbeston system, count tricks using leve and try slams by asking bids. To same I teach a lot of people and if you watch sometimes how me and Boian play precision, you will notice rely to similar evaluation of hands - biddable suits, QT... I also played Lambda system, both strong pass and strong club based, where majors are also 4 cards. There are several disadvantages, while plaing 4 cards majors:

• 1. Having 4 cards in major in balanced hand your best statistical contract is 1NT. This mean you partner need to judge with 3 cards support to bid or not 2 of major, depend of his hand. Not bad if you have only 4 cards opening, but very bad if you have 5 cards opening with balanced hand, because in same case 2 of major is statistically better, despite hand of responder. As you can understand, the words about responder who is "happy" mean he can raise to 2 of major with 3 cards with any hand without judgement, based on statistics, because not enough info yet for right hand evaluation.
  
• 2. To show 6 cards of major opening, if you open with 4 cards you need to rebid it 2 times, while with 5 cards opening 1 time is enough. Because 8 cards fit give you at least 1 trick more and inability to show it at 2 level playing 4 cards major opening, you can miss games or overbid at 3 level to investigate same possibility. When I am playing 4 cards of major I open with intermediate 2♥/♠ with 6 cards of major, to solve above problem (weak 2 by 2♦ multi).
  
• 3. Things are even worse in competition, due to lack of bidding space and lack of any knoledge about nature of opener's hand. Playing 5 cards major opening you can approximate opener's hand to unbalanced, willing to play own contract and make relative right decisions. I am not fan of Vernie's invention, but usage of LOTT is available for 5 cards opener's much more often than with 4 cards. Shortly, 4 cards major opening give you less chances to make right decision in competition.

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I am sure there are a lot of other arguments I didn't mention, but I think even above is enough. When I did statistical research about systems played by top players (posted here in BBO) I notice that only old partnerships and players from british region play with 4 cards majors. In my opinion, one of reasons why great country with large number of good players and traditions, don't have visible success at european and world chamionships is lack of evolution in bidding process. I don't want to be crazy prophet, but in my opinion if in USA regulation about systems remain same, regress of bridge in USA is also unavoidable. There is no chance lack of young players there - normally any young soul like experiments and new ideas.

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Misho

[dogsbreath]

Thanks to all for most interesting replies. I dont think opening 1D is viable unless previously discussed with p, however i see some logic to it. Was a little surprised that no-one suggested giving pref to 2H rather than pass 2D .. i did consider it.
Partener actually had 11 HCP with weakish 6-card Hearts, so 2H works fine if p doesnt get too excited. Noone commented as to wether p's bidding is constructive or not .. why cant p have weak 5-5 in the red suits? ..or constructive with (eg) 1-5-4-3 shape? ( yes..opps havent bid S yet...but i dont know that LHO is passing again).

[inquiry]

dogsbreath, on Mar 11 2004, 01:00 PM, said:

I was a little surprised that no-one suggested giving pref to 2H rather than pass 2D .. i did consider it.


Partener actually had 11 HCP with weakish 6-card Hearts, so 2H works fine if p doesnt get too excited. Noone commented as to wether p's bidding is constructive or not .. why cant p have weak 5-5 in the red suits? ..or constructive with (eg) 1-5-4-3 shape? ( yes..opps havent bid S yet...but i dont know that LHO is passing again).

On this auction you should never consider taking "preference" back to ♥s. First, your partner didn't open a weak two. Second he didn't rebid his major, and third if you play it, he didn't open mulderberg (5H, 4+ minor, less than opening hand). You have a known 8+♦ fit opposite a hand that couldn't open, and you have not a great hand yourself. If you just must bid, raise to 3♦ to make it rough for your opponents to find ♠'s. If you bid 2♥ you may have your partner playing in a 4-2 ♥ fit instead of a 5-4 or 4-4 ♦ fit (people tend to bid 4 card majors before 5 card ♦ suit).

Quote

Partener actually had 11 HCP with weakish 6-card Hearts, so 2H works fine if p doesnt get too excited. Noone commented as to wether p's bidding is constructive or not .. why cant p have weak 5-5 in the red suits? ..or constructive with (eg) 1-5-4-3 shape? ( yes..opps havent bid S yet...but i dont know that LHO is passing again).

No one commented on if your partner's bid was constructive or not because you asked a simple question ("playing 'NMF' is 2D systemically forcing, or subject to p'ship agreement?. I think most people (I know I did) addressed that specific question. If 2♦ is, in fact, nmf, then your partner may not have ♦'s, he could have, for instance six hearts and 2♦, and your pass would be wrong. But without special agreement, I think if you play nmf by unpassed hand, it is off by a passed hand. This is the question I thought you were asking. Thus, what you should bid was not a concern.