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Self cue?

#1 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2008-March-17, 22:00

Had the following (start of) an auction in an ACBL tourney tonight.

1♥ - (p) - 1♠ - (3♣ Weak)
X - (p) - 4♣

What should 4♣ show here, and what lengths does it show in other suit(s)?
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#2 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-17, 22:10

I'd play it as a COG. likely 5242 or 5233 without club stopper. Could of course show a strong hand but it doesn't have to.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#3 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-March-17, 22:14

Enough for game with no clear bid.

So probably only five spades or six bad ones and only two hearts and no club stopper and no diamond length (say not 5=5).

It could also be a very strong hand interested in slam outside these parameters - most like would be self-sufficient spades or primary heart support.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
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True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-17, 22:16

Thanks for clarifying my post again Wayne. B)
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2008-March-17, 23:03

What is a COG please?
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.”
Bridge should be fun!
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#6 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-17, 23:06

choice of games.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#7 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 04:10

han, on Mar 18 2008, 06:06 PM, said:

choice of games.

Thanks for clarifying your post Han :P
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#8 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 05:10

Will the choice always be between hearts and spades? What about these shapes:

5152 (choice between spades and diamonds)
4252/4261 (choice between hearts and diamonds)
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#9 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 05:15

4♣ is some sort of support bid. Pard should now bid 4♦ regardless and wait for responder to clear up the issue :P
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 07:13

Cascade, on Mar 18 2008, 03:10 AM, said:

han, on Mar 18 2008, 06:06 PM, said:

choice of games.

Thanks for clarifying your post Han :P

Quit being a post hog Wayne.
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.”
Bridge should be fun!
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#11 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 07:14

Thanks for the replies guys.

The full auction was:

1[HE} - (p) - 1♠ - (3♣)
X - (p) - 4♣ - (p)
4♠ - (p) - 5♥ - (p)
6♥

Partner tabled something like

♠Axxx ♥ Kxxxx ♦ KQ ♣ Kx

oppisite my

♠KJx ♥ QJTxx ♦ Jxxx ♣A

Obviously 6♥ was not a success. Partner insisted that 4♣ here shows heart support. My counter-argument was that there was an easy way to show heart support here: Bid 4♥ over the double.
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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 07:19

TylerE, on Mar 18 2008, 06:14 AM, said:

Thanks for the replies guys.

The full auction was:

1[HE} - (p) - 1♠ - (3♣)
X - (p) - 4♣ - (p)
4♠ - (p) - 5♥ - (p)
6♥

Partner tabled something like

♠Axxx ♥ Kxxxx ♦ KQ ♣ Kx

oppisite my

♠KJx ♥ QJTxx ♦ Jxxx ♣A

Obviously 6♥ was not a success. Partner insisted that 4♣ here shows heart support. My counter-argument was that there was an easy way to show heart support here: Bid 4♥ over the double.

I would never bid 4♥ this hand is worth a slam try in my books, bad luck. Whether you should make a move over 4♥ is questionable.
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.”
Bridge should be fun!
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#13 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 07:53

Partner should have supported hearts immediately. But I don't understand why you raised 5♥ to 6. Did you see 5♥ as asking for a club control?
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#14 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 07:54

Really, the hand is handled much better if responder supresses the anemic spade suit and just makes a GF heart raise.

1♥ - 2NT (no 3/4 ♣ bid here... preempting into a GF auction at R/W??)
4♥ - ap
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#15 User is offline   nick_s 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 08:10

I think Wayne pretty much nailed the answer to your original question.

Just out of curiosity: what was your double? Support? Whether it was or not, I think it should show a non-minimum and may have contributed to your getting too high.
Not an expert, just a student of the game
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#16 User is offline   bid_em_up 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 08:17

TylerE, on Mar 18 2008, 08:14 AM, said:

Obviously 6♥ was not a success. Partner insisted that 4♣ here shows heart support. My counter-argument was that there was an easy way to show heart support here: Bid 4♥ over the double.

Your counter argument should be, "Why bid 1S instead of making a g/f heart raise?", imo.
Is the word "pass" not in your vocabulary?
So many experts, not enough X cards.
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#17 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 08:37

TylerE, on Mar 18 2008, 01:14 PM, said:

Partner insisted that 4♣ here shows heart support. My counter-argument was that there was an easy way to show heart support here: Bid 4♥ over the double.

See? That's why you should play the "WTF is going on?" 4♦ convention, in which a 4♦ bidmerely says:

"Pard, I have no clue what's going on. Please tell me what's the fit!!"
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#18 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 11:00

Agree that partner should have made a forcing raise instead of bidding spades, and that you don't have nearly enough to double.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#19 User is offline   Edmunte1 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 12:13

1. Your double over 3♣ is very bad. Playing support doubles over 2 in partner's major should definitely show extras
2. 1♠ by partner was also bad, but that's not the main reason you reached this bad slam
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#20 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2008-March-18, 14:03

4♣ should be choice of games without a clear direction.
5242 for instance. Not 5 diamonds, since we can just bid 4♦ forcing with that.
Michael Askgaard
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