[effervesce]

foo, on Mar 21 2008, 09:14 PM, said:

Josh and others advocating 8+ loser 4333 12 counts as "wtp" 3rd and 4th seat openings:

How about you give your expert advice as to just how sound 1st and 2nd seat passes have to be to make a 4th seat IMP opening on 8+ losers 12 count 4333's a good proposition?

I'll even start you off. How about if a 1st oir 2nd seat opening promises 12+ HCP, 2+ QT, and 7- losers, then the OP 4th hand is an automatic opening?

Or do you feel it safe to be even more aggressive? If so, by how much? Rule of 20 including 2+ QT? Something else as criteria?

..and please feel free to note if there is a difference IYHO as to standards here @ IMPs vs @ MPs.

Points schmoints, losers schumoozers. How many losers does Axx Axx Axx Axxx have? 8 losers? I'm sure you agree that this hand is worth an opening bid.

What about AKQJxx xx xxx xx? Worth an opening bid in 4th seat? Yes, because you expect to go plus whenever you open the hand.

If you don't have any bidding judgement and want a 'rule' because you dont know how to evaluate your hand otherwise, how about the rule of 15? Add HCP plus the number of spades. 15 or more = open.

[skjaeran]

foo, on Mar 22 2008, 03:14 AM, said:

Josh and others advocating 8+ loser 4333 12 counts as "wtp" 3rd and 4th seat openings:

Why are you adding in 3rd seat here? The thread discuss 4th seat only.

3rd seat and 4th seat are very different positions with totally different tactics.

[Trinidad]

foo, on Mar 21 2008, 09:10 PM, said:

jmc, on Mar 21 2008, 07:52 PM, said:

Partner and I play precision with a 10-13 NT and open all 11's plus Rule of 20 hands.  I have been happily passing out 4th seat 12 counts under these conditions for the last 3 years.  We are way ahead in the mp area.

This I 100% believe.

This I believe too. However, it has very little to do with the discussion at hand. The original poster plays conservative 2nd seat openings. He wrote:

Quote

Partner will open most 12 pts and some 11 pts with 5 card Major.

This opening is about 2HCP more conservative than jmc's who plays a 10-13 NT in 2nd seat.

To compensate for that, I have made the original hand about 2 HCPs stronger to get: Qxx=AQx=AQxx=xxx (or Kxx=AJx=AQxx=xxx or Qxx=Axx=AKxx=Jxx). I would be amazed if jmc would pass in fourth seat with that hand.

Rik

[foo]

Trinidad, on Mar 22 2008, 03:44 AM, said:

The original poster plays conservative 2nd seat openings. He wrote:

Quote

Partner will open most 12 pts and some 11 pts with 5 card Major.

This opening is about 2HCP more conservative than jmc's who plays a 10-13 NT in 2nd seat.

To compensate for that, I have made the original hand about 2 HCPs stronger to get: Qxx=AQx=AQxx=xxx (or Kxx=AJx=AQxx=xxx or Qxx=Axx=AKxx=Jxx). I would be amazed if jmc would pass in fourth seat with that hand.

Rik

Wow. Opening most 12 counts and some 11 counts is considered "conservative" in 2nd seat now.

You do realize this is basically a Major suit biased Rule of 20?
12HCP + 44 in two longest suits => open.
11HCP + 5cM + 4card => open.
Now we do not know what "most 12" and "some 11" mean, but there are notably no opening requirements regarding Controls or Quick Tricks in the OP.

I also would be amazed if anyone playing a Natural system would pass a 14 count with A's in in any seat. So let's agree they are not germane to this discussion?

4333's have the lowest trick taking potential of any hand type in Bridge.
This argues for caution when dealing with them.

Bridge remains the game of Shape and Controls (A's and K's) regardless of whatever fad is presently in vogue. ...and when you do not have any shape, you need more hard values.

Given that OP looks to rarely be passing a 12 count and only ~50% of the 11 counts, we should probably assume
1= they have 11- if flat
2= they have 10- if long in the Majors and 11- if short in the Majors.
3= they rate strongly to be short in the Majors.

For all practical intent and purpose, we can stop worrying about missing a Game if holding a flat 12 or 13 count here.

That leaves the partscore battle. Logic says we should not open if
a= They rate to own the hand or

b= They rate to be able to outcompete us on boards that are "in the LOTT zone".
(boards where the HCP are split 20-20 or no worse than ~22-18)

If we are holding a 4333 12 count under these circumstances, I think we rate to have less HCP than Them and to have less Major suit cards than Them.

...and that means the best chance for a good score is to pass the hand out.

[georgeac]

i would also open this hand in any seat as well. i am also a junior

[ArtK78]

So much discussion of a hand that is, essentially, a borderline pass or opening bid in 4th seat.

If your partnership opens more frequently than average in 2nd seat, then this is a wtp pass.

If your partnership opens less frequently than average in 2nd seat, then this is a wtp opening bid.

If your partnership opens about average in second seat, then this is borderline.

As for the rest of the discussion, perhaps a new thread can be opened up titled "Why I hate Foo" or "Why Foo hates you."

[neilkaz]

ArtK78, on Mar 24 2008, 11:06 AM, said:

So much discussion of a hand that is, essentially, a borderline pass or opening bid in 4th seat.

If your partnership opens more frequently than average in 2nd seat, then this is a wtp pass.

If your partnership opens less frequently than average in 2nd seat, then this is a wtp opening bid.

If your partnership opens about average in second seat, then this is borderline.

As for the rest of the discussion, perhaps a new thread can be opened up titled "Why I hate Foo" or "Why Foo hates you."

Spot on, Art.

I'll chime in and say that while I hate 4333 I lean toward opening (average 2nd seat openings from PD) due to 2.5 QT, a comfortable pass of anything PD bids, and the desire for a ♦ lead if we defend.

[fromageGB]

A new point , if I may.

One consideration is does the partnership have a weak 2 agreement that will open a major or a multi with a 5 card suit? If it does, then that seriously moves this borderline 4th seat hand towards a pass. This is one of the hidden benefits of weak2s, they make other decisions easier. My partnerships bid 2M on a 5 card suit 8-11 and a multi 2D with 6 cards 6-10, so for me this is a pass out hand.

(Incidentally, on the given partner's hand, those Jacks would be downgraded to result in a pass.)