[benlessard]

Do you play that (3H)----4H could be S+m ?


I think the standard method is

X= takeout + elc hands
3S to 4D natural
4H= both m slammish, both m+ S tolerance.
4S= nat
4Nt both m
5m= nat but very strong hand since 4m is also natural

(with 5S + 5m) = X followed by 4S



With leaping michael its something like

X= take-out+ some 4S-6m hands
3S & 3nt = nat
4C= C+S
4D=D+S
4H slammish 2 or 3 suiters
4S nat
4Nt both m
5m might be a slight gamble since 4m isnt natural.


With FILO (fishbein + cheaper m take-out)

X= Sp X
3S= nat
3Nt= nat but tend to show a long m
4C= take-out with H shortness or S + C
4D= D + S
4H= both m+ S tol or both m with H void
4S= nat
4Nt = both m
5m = natural but could be gamble since 4m isnt available.

Do you play something else ?

[Cascade]

We play the non-leaping Michaels option.

After a 3♥ opening:

3♠ is natural and limited

3NT is natural and quite wide ranging

4m is bid m + Spades

4♥ is both minors

4♠ is better than 3♠ and six or more spades

4NT is Blackwood

5m is natural and similar to 4♠ in strength and unable to double or bid 3NT

[Zelandakh]

(from an intermediate so take with pinch of salt)

Over 3♥...
3♠/4m = natural limited
4♥ = spades + minor, slammy (4NT asks)
4♠/5m = natural, strong
4NT = minors
X - 3♠ - 4m = super-strong 1-suiter
X - 4♣ - 4♦ = spades + diamonds, non-slammy
X - 4♣ - 5♦ = super-strong diamond 1-suiter
X - 4♦ - 4♠ = spades + clubs, non-slammy
X - 4♦ - 5♠ = super-strong spade 1-suiter

I understand this goes against the 'never double a pre-empt with a 1-suiter' methodology.

[awm]

The rule I use is:

(1) Jump to the four-level in an unbid minor suit is "leaping michaels" showing that minor and an unbid major. So (3♣)-4♦ = diamonds and a major, (2♠)-4♣ = clubs and hearts.

(2) Non-jump bids in new suits are always natural. So 3♥-4♦ natural.

(3) Four-level cuebid always shows a two-suited hand. It will not be both minors (bids 4NT). It will not include the preempt suit of the opponents. If minor suit jumps are available as leaping michaels, it won't be the same hand as that. So (3♣)-4♣ = majors but (3♦)-4♦ = ambiguous, any two non-diamond suits. Also (3♠)-4♠ = hearts+minor.

I've seen people play "non-leaping michaels" and been impressed with how poor the results seem to be from that convention. Obviously you should win on the "non-leaping michaels" hands but the doubles seem to be a huge disaster even when you have a "normal" takeout double (because partner needs to cater to the minor one-suiter).

[jdonn]

awm, on Mar 13 2008, 05:17 PM, said:

I've seen people play "non-leaping michaels" and been impressed with how poor the results seem to be from that convention. Obviously you should win on the "non-leaping michaels" hands but the doubles seem to be a huge disaster even when you have a "normal" takeout double (because partner needs to cater to the minor one-suiter).

Huh? Are you saying people who can't bid 4m natural over 3♥ double to show either a takeout double or a single suited minor hand?

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Mar 14 2008, 01:38 PM, said:

awm, on Mar 13 2008, 05:17 PM, said:

I've seen people play "non-leaping michaels" and been impressed with how poor the results seem to be from that convention. Obviously you should win on the "non-leaping michaels" hands but the doubles seem to be a huge disaster even when you have a "normal" takeout double (because partner needs to cater to the minor one-suiter).

Huh? Are you saying people who can't bid 4m natural over 3♥ double to show either a takeout double or a single suited minor hand?

Not me although some minor hands are suit able for a takeout double, say 3=3=1=6 or 4=0=3=6 over a pre-empt in our short suit. With the minor hand we also stretch a little to bid 3NT or 5m but only a little.

4m is such a bad natural bid non-leaping Michaels would have to be very bad to worse than a natural 4minor. Years ago I did a simulation with :

♠ 7
♥ A1095
♦ Q6
♣ AKQ863

over a 3♦ opening. In the simulation 4♣ was worse than all of Double (that is some offshape double; 3NT (no stopper) and 3♥ (whoever heard of canape overcalls at this level).

I am pretty happy with our results with leaping and non-leaping Michaels - we had 5♣ X +1 last weekend (I think partner should have redoubled). We are off two bullets so didn't really miss slam.

[benlessard]

No doubt in my mind that non-leaping is giving me better result then 4m as single suiter.

What im wondering is what people do with 3055 or 3064. For me X is highly unattractive so i like to bid 4H with these hand, partner need 5 or 4 good S to bid 4S.