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Downgrade?

Poll: You have QJ8 AJ4 AQ76 J32. What is this hand worth? (52 member(s) have cast votes)

You have QJ8 AJ4 AQ76 J32. What is this hand worth?

  1. I'd open a 15-17 1NT (40 votes [76.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 76.92%

  2. I'd open a 14.5-17 1NT, but not a 15-17 1NT (3 votes [5.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.77%

  3. I'd open a 14-16 1NT, but not anything stronger (7 votes [13.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.46%

  4. It's not good enough for any of these (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. It's too strong for any of these (2 votes [3.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.85%

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#1 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 04:03

When is a 15-count not a 15-count?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#2 User is offline   Mud Reelo 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 04:06

If I were playing a weak NT, maybe (just maybe) I'd downgrade it. If 15 points is in my NT range, I would never ever downgrade. Ever

Opening 1NT is g00t
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#3 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 04:18

It's got two aces.
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#4 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 04:52

True. But it also has five quacks, no spot cards above the eight, and only one four card suit.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#5 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 05:07

I think it is funny that most people would auto-open this 1N but would probably open xx AKTx AKxx xxx 1♦.

This is about as good as a below-average balanced 14-count. Clear downgrade, would open this a 14-16NT.

I think I would consider opening this a 15-17 1N only if white at MPs.
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#6 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 06:45

What's a 14.5 - 17 NT? I thought that is what's usually called "15-17". So maybe the question is what's a 15 - 17 NT if there is such a thing as a 14.5 - 17 NT?
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#7 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 06:52

Sometimes a 14 count is a 15 count, but a 15 count is never a 14 count.

I don't think it is ever right to downgrade a balanced hand when deciding whether to open 1NT.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#8 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 07:18

rogerclee, on Mar 13 2008, 12:07 PM, said:

I think it is funny that most people would auto-open this 1N but would probably open xx AKTx AKxx xxx 1♦.

This is about as good as a below-average balanced 14-count. Clear downgrade, would open this a 14-16NT.

I think I would consider opening this a 15-17 1N only if white at MPs.

Well, I didn't open Kxx AKxx Kx A10xx 1NT on Monday it was too good.

Anyway, if this is from last night, and gnasher was playing with one of my regular partners, then I know that the partner doesn't like downgrades - he has disagreed with 2 of the last 3 15s that I downgraded. And he announces our opening as "15-17 could be a good 14".
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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 07:38

FrancesHinden, on Mar 13 2008, 02:18 PM, said:

Well, I didn't open Kxx AKxx Kx A10xx 1NT on Monday it was too good.

I think that clearly worth upgrading.

Quote

Anyway, if this is from last night, and gnasher was playing with one of my regular partners, then I know that the partner doesn't like downgrades - he has disagreed with 2 of the last 3 15s that I downgraded.

It is, and I was, but he was the only one to express any support for my decision to downgrade this. I expect he thinks I need an extra point or two to make up for the way I play the cards.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#10 User is offline   mikegill 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 07:40

I think the tactical advantages of opening 1NT far outweigh the fact that this may be only worth as much as some 14-counts.
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#11 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 08:56

IMHO the hand is borderline so its more important to decide if the hand fit well with a 1D opening.

1D with AQxx is ok for competitive lead directing purpose.

1D---1H----??? i have np for 2H
1D---1S----??? i have np for 2S.
1D---1Nt---??? i have np with pass
1D---limit-----i have np with 3Nt

so ill open this 1 1D because i feel that 1D & continuation describe the hand better then a 1Nt bid.

In a 12-14 nt i would never open this one 1nt.
In a strong club (15+) i would open 1C. So its not because i find the hand too weak that im opening 1D.

Finding the exact numerical strenght of the hand isnt what is important , finding the best way to show the value of the hand is what is important.
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#12 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-13, 09:58

ask han
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#13 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 10:01

No WAY would I downgrade this. This hand is fine since anything partner provides will be useful. I'll go so far as to say I believe downgrading this hand to be a clear error at any scoring or vul.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#14 User is offline   keylime 

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  Posted 2008-March-13, 11:06

If I open 1m playing 15-17, I'll be happy to table this hand for partner's major. Playing 14-16 I likely open 1NT for consistency reasons.
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#15 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 11:50

Let's see. Define 1N as 15-17 high card points balanced hand, then don't use that bid on a 15 hcp 3343 balanced hand. Is that the question?
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#16 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 13:16

Jlall, on Mar 13 2008, 10:58 AM, said:

ask han

I decided not to post in this thread and still...
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#17 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 13:37

For me this question cannot be answered in isolation.

Yes it is a bad 15 perhaps a very bad 15. Two aces are the good features and everything else is bad.

If you are very sound on your minimum balanced hands, say never opening 11s and passing some 12s then you are much better place to downgrade than if you frequently open 11s. This is because your 1NT rebids are fairly narrow in the first case but much wider (and even wider still if you start downgrading) in the later case.
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#18 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 13:51

Despite all the good things that can come from 1nt openings, i would definitely downgrade this hand against anyone I respected. If I open this hand 1NT it is because I am looking left and right, not at my cards.
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#19 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2008-March-13, 23:39

I was reading Meckstroth's book "Win the Bermuda Bowl with Me", and one of the things he says has served him well is, when faced with a decision as to whether to make a slight overbid or a slight underbid, he will always choose the overbid as it makes the rest of the auction easier - he's already done justice to his values.

I'm bidding my 15-17 NT.
Chris Gibson
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#20 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2008-March-14, 01:56

For all the reasons given, I would open this 1 NT playing 12-14, 13-15, 14-16 or 15-17.
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