[skjaeran]

jdonn, on Mar 12 2008, 05:54 PM, said:

2NT??? On the second one??? In what way is that not a psych?

If it's the systemic rebid with this hand it's no psyche. Of course it's alertable.

I've tried that style once, and won't suggest you play like that.

[Cascade]

I bid 2♦ on the first one and raise to 3♣ on the second one.

If in fact the first response was 2♦ then I raise with the first hand and bid 2NT on the second hand.

[Yogeshdg]

As per lawrence the 1st hand should rebid 2♠(not promising 6spades and unlimited hand). I like 2♦ rebid but technically it does promise a suit and unless my pd and me have an agreement that 2♦ can be 3 cards i am really not that keen on a 2♦ rebid! You can also rebid 2nt (12-14) but as someone mentioned not advisable with no values in ♥.And if responder had responded 2♦ instead of 2♣ think you can continue in same fashion by bidding 2♠ as 3♦ should again be extras.



The second hand is an undisputable 3♣ rebid showing 4♣ and extras.

[the hog]

2S on the first one as I don't bid non existent suits. The second is worth 3C, even playing that it shows extra values.

[benlessard]

2Nt as catch all is dubious, you will wrongside too many 3Nt contract.

anyway its a 2D and 3C wtp for me what ever style we are playing.

[MickyB]

Apologies, I forgot to put the auction for the second one - it was indeed 1♠:2♦, we would have raised clubs if partner had responded 2♣

[y66]

After a 2/1 response to 1M, Lawrence, Kokish, Hardy and Robinson all advise opener to rebid their major with hand types that do not meet specific criteria for other bids. For them, rebidding 2M does not promise a 6-card suit.

For example, in Modern American Bidding, Eric Kokish suggests that, after a two-over-one response:

"A two-level reverse or a non-jump three-level new-suit bid and raise to three-of-a-minor [at least four trumps, sound opening] shows extra strength (the "high reverse" at the three-level promising at least five-five), but a single raise to three hearts may be based on a minimum hand. Opener's new-suit jump after a two-over-one response is a splinter raise but needn't deliver more than a sound opening bid with four-card trump support.

"A two-notrump rebid by opener shows at least 15 HCP, a balanced hand, suitable stoppers."

"Opener rebids his major with hands unsuitable for a different rebid."

BWS and Bridge Base Advanced System Summary are silent on this topic.

Interestingly, here in Washington Standard country, everyone I've talked to in the 3 years I've spent trying to learn this game, including my favorite pro, plays that 2M promises 6-cards!!!

Would love to know how mickyb and his partner resolve this. In the meantime, I am duly noting FrancesHinden's comments in this thread and the structure she proposed on the other thread.

[foo]

Absent any special structure that has been agreed upon, the default I usually use is for both 2M and 2N to be "catch alls" for minimums where you try to bid whichever best describes your hand.

So hands with stronger or longer M bid 2M and the others bid 2N. Playing NA Standard one can also make descriptive bids in lower ranking suits with a minimum as long as on does not cross 2N or reverse (1M-2C;2D or 1S-2m;2H or etc).

If playing 2/1 GF, there is the additional issue of what form of 2/1 GF are you playing.
Some play that any rebid other than those specifically reserved for minimum openings shows extras.
(I do not like this one. IMHO the whole point of playing 2/1 GF is to be able to describe hands more freely. To me, 2/1 GF being more restrictive than Standard makes no sense!)

Some play that any new strain rebid that is lower ranking than opener's first bid suit while not crossing 2N does -not- show extras
eg 1M-2C;2D or 1S-2m;2H or 1M-2m;2M or 1M-2m;2N
can all be made with minimums.

Some play that reverses that do not cross 2N (eq are not a "High Reverse") can also be make with minimums
eg 1H-2m;2S can also be made with a minimum

I firmly belong to this camp; and one of the reasons I do is that if you run through the hand types and sequences available you will notice that if playing this style 1M-2m;2M can usually be counted on to show 6+M.

Finally, there are those who play a style of 2/1 GF where Opener can make =any= non jump rebid with a minimum. For them, 1M-2m;2M will always show 6+M.
OTOH, in return for being able to freely describe their shape with any hand, these Openers sometimes have difficulty communicating how strong their hand is.

YMMV. Pick your cake or poison.

[foo]

♠Axxxx ♥xxx ♦AKQ ♣xx
1S-2C;??

2D Playing Standard or 2/1 GF

♠Jxxxx ♥KJx ♦x ♣AQJx
1S-2D;??

For me, 2N Playing Standard or 2/1 GF
For those playing unrestricted rebids opposite a 2/1 GF, 3C

In both cases, there are features in the hand or about the combined hands that greatly overshadow the ♠'s, so it makes far more sense to talk about them rather than repeat one's self about the unimpressive M.

AKQxx_xxx_Axx_xx is of course a 2S rebid.

Qxxxx_Kxx_Axx_Ax or the like is a 2N rebid for me.

xxxxx_AKQ_Axx_xx or the like is also a 2N rebid.
I will not lie about Major suit length in a 2/1 auction.

Hope these responses are useful.

[ASkolnick]

Have played both styles:

Was originally a 6 bagger, but change to minimum catch all

I think the minimum leads to more flexibility but will make some auctions much more uncomfortable when partner holds a doubleton spade.

1S-2C-
2S- Do you always bid 3S with a doubleton now? What if you are 5-4 in clubs ind diamonds?

So there are compromises this way as well

However the fact that bidding 2N as catch all wrong sides the contract is one of the most overrated concepts. Try looking at hand records to figure out if who has the lead is very important. It is only a very few hands and it usually has nothing to do with which hand has the strength. It usually depends who has the better lead. The one who has 5 cards in our weakness has an easier time to lead it.

I hold Qxx, Qxx, Qxx, Qxxx opposite Axx, Axx, Axxx, Axx do I really want to lead through the queens.

[foo]

ASkolnick, on Mar 14 2008, 11:48 AM, said:

However the fact that bidding 2N as catch all wrong sides the contract is one of the most overrated concepts. 

Try looking at hand records to figure out if who has the lead is very important.  It is only a very few hands and it usually has nothing to do with which hand has the strength.  It usually depends who has the better lead.  The one who has 5 cards in our weakness has an easier time to lead it.

I hold Qxx, Qxx, Qxx, Qxxx opposite Axx, Axx, Axxx, Axx do I really want to lead through the queens.

Agree with one caveat.

In the absence of any knowledge about the defending hands, the best hand to Declare in NT is usually the one with the most Asymmetric Guards (Kx, Qxx, AJTx,etc). Not the strongest hand.

[Apollo81]

awm, on Mar 12 2008, 04:40 PM, said:

People really play 2NT as the catch-all? This is sort of wow... say you have:

♠AKxxx
♥xx
♦Kxxxx
♣x

If you don't open this, add a jack or two until you get a minimum opening bid. 1♠-2♥ and you really bid 2NT? Or is 3♦ automatic on a 5-5 regardless of values?

yeah people around here play extra shape or extra values, so any 5-5 is OK for 3m

[Apollo81]

Strong club systems do well on hands like #2. Maybe in standard there should be rules about what promises extras, but in precision you've already defined 11-15 anyway so it doesnt matter as much and you can just bid what you have.

[Apollo81]

awm, on Mar 12 2008, 04:40 PM, said:

People really play 2NT as the catch-all? This is sort of wow... say you have:

♠AKxxx
♥xx
♦Kxxxx
♣x

If you don't open this, add a jack or two until you get a minimum opening bid. 1♠-2♥ and you really bid 2NT? Or is 3♦ automatic on a 5-5 regardless of values?

The problem hand for the "extra shape or extra values" style will be something like AKxxx xx Kxxx xx, changing any x to a jack.

Of course if you dont play 2M rebid shows 6 then youre going to lose some accuracy when you actually hold a 6-card major. You'll have to make a nebulous 2M rebid. At this point partner cannot support your major since a raise could be 3, so he will bid something else. You are probably at the 3-level already. Now in order to find a 6-2 fit you will have to rebid your major a third time, or bid something below 3M so partner can support with 2. There's not much bidding room to do this on many auctions.

There is always a trade off when making system decisions. The above issue is one of the many reasons I prefer playing strong club.