[kenrexford]

If normal, ordinary 2/1 GF, whatever that means:

What is the expectation difference between:

1♠-P-2♣-P-
2♥-P-2♠-P-
2NT-P-3NT-P-
P-P

and

1♠-P-2♣-P-
2♥-P-2♠-P-
3NT-P-P-P

?

Furthermore, what kind of hand would you expect for Opener and for Responder for each auction? Does one expects either person to have a general spread of values or what appears to be an unhelpful COV in the wrong suits? Does one auction or the other suggest a mess of scattered values or a poor-fitting COV?

After a poor result, the explanation of these distinct sequences left me with the conclusion that the latter showed one holding set but the former asked Opener to pass if he should have bid 3NT instead, which made no sense, of course.

[jdonn]

For opener I would expect 5422 11-14 or 18-19 for the first (and thus the minimum hand for the pass of 3NT), 15-17 for the second. Certainly I could not be convinced they that either isn't natural.

For responder, a balanced hand with three spades that would rather play 3NT, in both cases. I think he is making a stronger statement about the notrumpy nature of his hand than opener is.

[kenrexford]

What is a "notrumpy hand?" Is a hand "notrumpy" for advancer when he has a COV in the minors, or a scattered-values hand? As a simple to-the-point, would you expect a diamond holding for Advancer that looks more like Qxx or KQ10x?

How about for Opener, in passing 3NT? I mean, opposite Qxx in the fourth suit, Opener should have something, it seems. Opposite KQ10x, Opener is unlikely to have anything, and that seems rather less important anyway. Whereas K10 tight might be great opposite Qxx, a stiff might be appropriate opposite KQ10x. Obviously, though, a stiff opposite Qxx would be really bad, and a H10 tight opposite a COV would be a bit much and perhaps suggestive of a slam or of a hole elsewhere.

[Yogeshdg]

jdonn, on Mar 12 2008, 10:13 PM, said:

For opener I would expect 5422 11-14 or 18-19 for the first (and thus the minimum hand for the pass of 3NT), 15-17 for the second. Certainly I could not be convinced they that either isn't natural.

For responder, a balanced hand with three spades that would rather play 3NT, in both cases. I think he is making a stronger statement about the notrumpy nature of his hand than opener is.

Agree Agree and if he has 18-19 he bids 4nt over 3nt rite?

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Mar 12 2008, 10:28 PM, said:

What is a "notrumpy hand?"

If you don't know it when you see it, I can't help you I have no idea what COV means either. Choice Of Very overthought definitions for a bid?

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Mar 12 2008, 10:52 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Mar 12 2008, 10:28 PM, said:

What is a "notrumpy hand?"

If you don't know it when you see it, I can't help you I have no idea what COV means either. Choice Of Very overthought definitions for a bid?

Yeah, this was my thought, confirmed. It is a choice of games bid, but it seems amazingly difficult to explain what the thinking should be because it is very difficult to explain what hand type is appropriate for the call. Sounds like a blame-transfer bid.

"COV" = "Concentration Of Values"

[FrancesHinden]

It partly depends on the meaning of the 2♠ bid. Some people (including me) play that this promises three spades. Other say it might easily be a doubleton not wanting to bid NT or a new suit for some reason.

If 2♠ promised three card support, then on the first auction I think opener is just describing his hand further - he has no extra shape, so is either 5431 or 5422, and he has something pretty solid in diamonds. I think responder's 3NT bid is a stronger statement of strain selection. On the second opener is saying "in spite of you having spade support I can see no value in playing in spades" and could be, say, KQ109x QJ10x AQ10 x. I would expect responder to pull only with doubt about clubs.

There's an alternative meaning for the jump to 3NT on a slightly different auction, say 1S - 2S - 3NT; now it shows running spades, usually 6, and a suggestion that 9 tricks will be easier than 10.

If 2♣ was not natural, or if 2S didn't promise 3-card support, then the texture is a little different.

I might add that I've had the first auction, or effectively similar auctions, but never the second.

[benlessard]

2nt is 11-14 or 18-19 and 3nt is 15-17, both should show double D stopper except in the 18-19 version.

Otherwise there is no satisfing way to show the 5422, 5431 (15-17)

This assume 2S show at least 3S.