[glen]

Haven't seen this in the bulletins - did I miss it?

[JanM]

It's been very low - I don't know exactly how low. Probably that's why it hasn't been in the Daily Bulletins . Not really surprising though, with this in between San Francisco and Las Vegas, so anyone who doesn't want to go to all 3 would probably choose one or both of the others. The playing site has been fine, and you can stay inside so the cold weather hasn't been a problem.

[kenrexford]

I know personally that Detroit attendance was down 50% for me.

To explain, I intended to play four days -- the first fri-sat and then for the IMP pairs. However, I cancelled the IMP Pairs because the playing site, for me, sucked royally.

I understand the need to have non-smoking events these days, but some of us like to smoke on occasion, damn it. In many venues, this means having a quick puff after an easy round, with at least two breaks during the session to have a leisurely smoke.

However, this was impossible in Detroit. To get a smoke in, you had to:

1. Walk the length of the room
2. Walk a fine distance around a stupid circular walkway to the first down-escalator.
3. At the bottom of the first down escalator, walk around a stupid circular walkway, down a straight walk to another circular walkway, and a short distance to the second down-escalator.
4. At the base of the second down-escalator, walk a short distance to the third down-sescalator.
5. At the base of the third down-escalator, walk back to the start of the fourth down-escalator.
6. After the fourth down-escalator (I may actually be missing one of the down-escalators), walk a good distance around a corner to a long walk across an atrium to exit the site.
7. Smoke a cigarette in a completely unprotected outside area.
8. Repeat all of this in reverse, running to the point where you are out of breath.

If there was a 10-minute break between the end of the round and the new round, I could just about run the distance abnd puff twice.

Compare this with San Francisco, where having a cigarette was easy, despite two escalators and a lot of distance to cover. It worked, even when on the far extreme of the room. Detroit was hopeless.

Chicago? Fine. St. Louis? Fine. Toronto? Well, that was a mess, as well, but I even managed there better. Detroit's was the worst I've ever experienced.

The result for me, playing with a smoker who could not make the run like I did, was pure misery. He played like sh!# after a while, as did I, and we got irritated quickly. Sure, quit smoking. I know, I know. But, until then. it would be nice to have a site where enjoyment of the game is possible. For me, it was not.

[hrothgar]

kenrexford, on Mar 16 2008, 10:07 PM, said:

I know personally that Detroit attendance was down 50% for me.

To explain, I intended to play four days -- the first fri-sat and then for the IMP pairs. However, I cancelled the IMP Pairs because the playing site, for me, sucked royally.

...

The result for me, playing with a smoker who could not make the run like I did, was pure misery. He played like sh!# after a while, as did I, and we got irritated quickly. Sure, quit smoking. I know, I know. But, until then. it would be nice to have a site where enjoyment of the game is possible. For me, it was not.

Ken:

In order to make a credible claim that inconvenience faced by smokers had a meaningful impact on attendance you'd need to demonstrate that players changed their behavior based on this attribute...

In your case, you presumably had no idea about the smoking situation prior to booking your trip. Your behavior changed on day three.

If you were able to show some kind of pattern in which the Detroit numbers started out strong and then declined (as, presumably) smokers start coughing up lungs or some such you might be on to something.

Without this type of information you're pretty much just sucking wind

[han]

I don't think that Ken claimed anything, credible or not. He just told us about his personal experience in Detroit, so I'm not sure why you respond like that Richard.

Quote

8. Repeat all of this in reverse, running to the point where you are out of breath.

Maybe you smoke too much Ken.

[sceptic]

han, on Mar 16 2008, 07:51 PM, said:

I don't think that Ken claimed anything, credible or not. He just told us about his personal experience in Detroit, so I'm not sure why you respond like that Richard.

Quote

8. Repeat all of this in reverse, running to the point where you are out of breath.

Maybe you smoke too much Ken.

my warn level is to high for me to explain it to you, but I it would appear someone just likes the sound of their own typing

also it would help if the poster read what Ken had said

enough said, I don't want to get banned

[matmat]

sceptic, on Mar 16 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

my warn level is to high for me to explain it to you, but I it would appear someone just likes the sound of their own typing

*cough*
pot
*cough*
kettle
*cough*
black
*cough*

[AlternaG]

I thought that the site was great. Sure, the building's a little goofy with the circular walkways, but it was convenient to most everything in downtown Detroit via public transportation (people-mover), the hotel was in a beautiful location on the waterfront overlooking Windsor, ON, and there was plenty to do in the hotel besides bridge. Parking was moderately convenient.

I can understand the complaint from smokers, though. It takes serious effort to get from the 4th/5th (even 3rd) floor rooms to somewhere that you can have a cigarette; this is almost impossible in a 10 minute break without going into the bathroom for a quick puff and blowing the smoke down the toilet (ah, high school).

It is to be expected that Detroit would have lower attendance than SF or LV for obvious reasons. I think it would have made more sense to have the summer NABC in Detroit, when people could walk around the city a little more comfortably (weather), perhaps catch a Tigers game, etc.

That said, I thought that things ran fairly well, and that the site was more than adequate.

[sceptic]

matmat, on Mar 16 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

sceptic, on Mar 16 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

my warn level is to high for me to explain it to you, but I it would appear someone just likes the sound of their own typing

*cough*
pot
*cough*
kettle
*cough*
black
*cough*

[the hog]

Maybe the low attendance was due to system restrictions.

[glen]

In Monday's bulletin, the final attendance: 8,553.5 tables

[jchiu]

Truly disappointing. Makes me wonder why the ACBL continues to have nationals in such places.

[jdonn]

Speaking as someone who doesn't go to every NABC but tries to make more than half, I can certainly say I never seriously considered attending this one. I mean come on, my vacation days are precious. Detroit?

I don't smoke, but if the smokers can't efficiently go on their smoking breaks then it has an impact on the entire game. Rounds will start later and people will be more rushed and crankier. If that was as bad as it sounds then I really can't imagine how such an important aspect was either overlooked or ignored.

[TimG]

jdonn, on Mar 17 2008, 03:48 AM, said:

Speaking as someone who doesn't go to every NABC but tries to make more than half, I can certainly say I never seriously considered attending this one. I mean come on, my vacation days are precious. Detroit?

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but when I was attending NABCs, I factored in things like cost and convenience much more than what other attractions the host city might have to offer. I expect to be playing bridge, not touring the city. Given the choice between SF and Detroit, I would have picked Detroit -- I can only assume Detroit was less expensive, and living on the east coast, Detroit would have been more convenient.

[rogerclee]

TimG, on Mar 17 2008, 05:18 AM, said:

jdonn, on Mar 17 2008, 03:48 AM, said:

Speaking as someone who doesn't go to every NABC but tries to make more than half, I can certainly say I never seriously considered attending this one. I mean come on, my vacation days are precious. Detroit?

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but when I was attending NABCs, I factored in things like cost and convenience much more than what other attractions the host city might have to offer. I expect to be playing bridge, not touring the city. Given the choice between SF and Detroit, I would have picked Detroit -- I can only assume Detroit was less expensive, and living on the east coast, Detroit would have been more convenient.

Me too. I'm a student, and aside from money, time is an issue. I went to SF because it was a 39 dollar plane ticket and a 1-hour plane ride. I did not go to Detroit simply because it would just take too much of my time to travel there.

[hrothgar]

While I have some firm opinions about what I value in an NABC location, I have no clue what the ACBL membership as a whole thinks. I'm really not sure whether folks value convenience, tourist attractions, legalized gambling, what have you...

From my own perspective, I wish that the ACBL would do some basic research trying to estimate the true cost of a tournament for potential attendees.

Airfare costs vary dramatically between cities depending on the amount of competition in the local airport. There are also often significant differences in hotel prices. I don't think that we have any clear data about the "cost" of Detroit relative to Vegas, Boston, Houston, what have you.

It would be interesting to try to track these sorts of numbers over time and see whether there is much correlation between cost and attendence. If "cheap" cities do lead to spikes in attendence that suggests that losts of attendees are cost concious. If there is no such relation that might suggest that folks prefer destination cities.

From my own perspective, i wonder whether the general state of the economy might have been more significant than the choice of cities....

[TimG]

hrothgar, on Mar 17 2008, 07:51 AM, said:

It would be interesting to try to track these sorts of numbers over time and see whether there is much correlation between cost and attendence. If "cheap" cities do lead to spikes in attendence that suggests that losts of attendees are cost concious. If there is no such relation that might suggest that folks prefer destination cities.

I'm pretty sure that 2 or 3 of the 5 best attended NABCs have been held in Las Vegas. Places like Toronto, Orlando and SF will attract more players than Kansas City, Detroit or Birmingham. You will not see attendance spikes for the "cheaper" non-destination cities.

[foo]

hrothgar, on Mar 17 2008, 07:51 AM, said:

From my own perspective, i wonder whether the general state of the economy might have been more significant than the choice of cities....

hear hear. Especially since the vast majority of ACBL members are retirees living off investment incomes... ...when ATM the USA's largest financial firms are in the midst of the largest crisis in confidence since The Great Depression.

[pclayton]

Detroit I guess was better than i expected, but my expectations were very low in the first place.

The playing site was nice, but the circular walkways and elevators that skip floors reminded me of the game Riven. I'm glad I dont smoke. I cant see making it outside in a reasonable period of time. The hotel was nice for a depressed city like Detroit. We were upgraded to a suite on the 65th after a major snafu when we first checked in Saturday morning.

There were barely any restaurants to speak of unless you got on the people mover. The hotel is in a financial district so many of the eateries were closed on weekends.

I've yet to figure out why they have nationals in cold places. People want to flee places like this in March, not
use their vacation time to visit them.

I know the ACBL doesnt have staff in Memphis that coordinates nationals except for the directors. These tourneys are a maor source of income for the league. I think they will wake up one day and realize its no coincidence that Vegas and Orlando have the best attendance for a reason. Keep a national in Vegas every year, one in Orlando maybe every other year, and then have a 'floater' in nice cities people actually like to visit.

In the end, even if the nationals were held in Nome, AK I'd still go.

I give Detroit a C-.