[gnasher]

Over the past few weeks I've seen several suggestions for constructive auctions that end in 5NT. This is an area of the game that I seem to have missed out on.

I don't think I've ever played in a freely-bid 5NT, and I don't want to. Even though my teammates have learned to expect a sprinkling of bizarre results, I'm not keen on finding out how they'd react to 5NT-1.

[jdonn]

TimG, on Mar 12 2008, 09:16 AM, said:

To Codo's suggestion that 5C shows a five-card suit: I disagree.  I think standard is that a new suit at the five-level is a four-card suit and a new suit at the six-level is a five-card suit.  (I also believe that any move over 4NT accepts the invitation, so stopping at the five-level is not an option.)  As I just said, I'd like to be playing methods that allowed for some investigation below 4NT, but absent that, I think these are "standard".

Strongly disagree (with you too han!) (and you too inquiry!) (and you too cherdano!) They both show five card suits but 6♣ shows a better one. It is important to distinguish ATxxx from KQTxx lest poor pard be sitting there with Jxx. In fact showing a weaker five card suit allows you to stop in 5NT as well when partner fits it very badly. To look for 4-4 fits just bid 5NT over 4NT and baron away. I don't believe anything is actually standard (in fact in the general bridge playing community, among players who don't think 4NT is blackwood and who would ever bid anything but pass or 6NT, I'm sure answering aces if you have a max is "standard", as bad as it is) but I'm quite sure what I just said is best, at least among practical solutions.

I do believe south has a very clear acceptance via 5NT.

[TimG]

jdonn, on Mar 12 2008, 10:51 AM, said:

Strongly disagree (with you too han!) (and you too inquiry!) (and you too cherdano!) They both show five card suits but 6♣ shows a better one.

I wonder if either of us can find reference to this in the bridge literature.

[han]

Fine Josh, if your method is clearly superior I believe you. It is not what I have played so far so I'd bid 5C showing 4.

[jdonn]

TimG, on Mar 12 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

jdonn, on Mar 12 2008, 10:51 AM, said:

Strongly disagree (with you too han!) (and you too inquiry!) (and you too cherdano!) They both show five card suits but 6♣ shows a better one.

I wonder if either of us can find reference to this in the bridge literature.

I'm fairly sure Marshall Miles touched on it in his recent book on constructive bidding. Maybe I'll look in my copy tonight.

[cherdano]

You can still distinguish between a good and bad 5-card suit by jumping with the good suit and rebidding the suit with the bad suit. IMO it is useful to bid 4-card suits and still be able to stop in 5N but I won't argue with someone averaging +8 IMPs when playing 5N.*

*Anyone up for verifying Josh's claim via BridgeBrowser? Then I could continue arguing.

[TimG]

jdonn, on Mar 12 2008, 11:53 AM, said:

TimG, on Mar 12 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

jdonn, on Mar 12 2008, 10:51 AM, said:

Strongly disagree (with you too han!) (and you too inquiry!) (and you too cherdano!) They both show five card suits but 6♣ shows a better one.

I wonder if either of us can find reference to this in the bridge literature.

I'm fairly sure Marshall Miles touched on it in his recent book on constructive bidding. Maybe I'll look in my copy tonight.

I looked through some books this afternoon, couldn't find any mention of bidding after a qualitative 4NT. The Bidding Dictionary seems to stop at 4S. I have lots of old standards, even Stayman's "Do You Play Stayman" in which he gives a scheme for showing exact point count after 1N -- 1N-4N = 16, 1N-2C-2x-4N = 17, 1N-5N = 18, 1N-2C-2x-5N = 19...or something like that -- but no mention of suit follow-ups.

[Cascade]

gnasher, on Mar 13 2008, 04:49 AM, said:

Over the past few weeks I've seen several suggestions for constructive auctions that end in 5NT. This is an area of the game that I seem to have missed out on.

I don't think I've ever played in a freely-bid 5NT, and I don't want to. Even though my teammates have learned to expect a sprinkling of bizarre results, I'm not keen on finding out how they'd react to 5NT-1.

Its better than 6NT -2

[Cascade]

Some form of CONFI (or CONFIT) would help here - but that seems to be out of favour.

With marginal slam hands we are usually much better playing in a suit if we have a fit. So it makes sense to have some method to finding a 4=4 minor fit and at least invite slam.

[TimG]

I've found one reference: KS Updated. In the responses to 1NT section it lists 4NT: "quantitative; if accept, bid suits up the line."

It makes no mention of whether suits at the five-level are 4-card or 5-card suits, but "suits up the line" suggests four-card suit to me. I think the "if accept" part means that any move over 4NT accepts the invitation.

I'm not suggestion K-S is standard, it's just the only reference I can find.

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on Mar 12 2008, 04:49 PM, said:

Over the past few weeks I've seen several suggestions for constructive auctions that end in 5NT. This is an area of the game that I seem to have missed out on.

I don't think I've ever played in a freely-bid 5NT, and I don't want to. Even though my teammates have learned to expect a sprinkling of bizarre results, I'm not keen on finding out how they'd react to 5NT-1.

I've played in a freely-bid 5NT contract once. It was sort of a success: 5NT was basically cold, 6NT was flat out on a 3-3 break.

Of course 6NT made and we lost imps. So you might say the patient died...

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Mar 12 2008, 11:55 AM, said:

You can still distinguish between a good and bad 5-card suit by jumping with the good suit and rebidding the suit with the bad suit. IMO it is useful to bid 4-card suits and still be able to stop in 5N but I won't argue with someone averaging +8 IMPs when playing 5N.*

*Anyone up for verifying Josh's claim via BridgeBrowser? Then I could continue arguing.

I don't think the program you mention should ever be used to pull out data for any individual for posting in public forums -- at least not without their permission. In addition, I am not sure he said his 8 imps per 5NT contract was online, f2f, or a combination. Nor does that program have all the data, as there is a month or so missing in 2007.

The data is readily available of course. I quickly create a single database of just josh's hands from the program you mentioned. This database contains well over 17K hands, only three of which were played in 5NT. I am not sure how many he played in the missing month or two of data.

I also looked at what people at the table do over 1N-4N with their 5 level and 6 level suit bids.

[jdonn]

Anyone can look up or post any hands of mine they want and it won't bother me, although based on lots of bids and plays I've made maybe it should. Suffice to say I don't exactly take my online bridge seriously all the time. I don't know where this +8 imps thing came from though, I don't think that's anything I said.

I'm surprised I only played 5NT three times

Still at work (long day!) but I still intend to check my book when I get home. I think it will confirm what I said, but I also think it's not some definitive answer either way (I stand by there technically being no 'standard' meaning), just the opinion of one extremely good player and author.

[jdonn]

From Modern Constructive Bidding by Marshall Miles

When responder invites a slam by bidding a natural 4NT, if opener is strong enough to accept he should usually bid 5NT, *again asking responder to bid four-card suits up the line.

* "again" refers to a prior example on a different auction in which he believes a 5NT bid by responder should do the same thing.

I recall the following hand.

1NT 4NT
5NT 6♣

---

He talks about how 6♣ is better than 6NT, blah blah blah. Then he goes on:

Jumping to the six-level should show a very good five-card suit (or perhaps even a six-bagger) - something like
♠xx ♥AQx ♦KQJTx ♣Axx
Here 6♦ would be safer than 6NT opposite
♠AJx ♥KJxx ♦Axx ♣QJx

Oddly he never explicitly mentions how he would define a 5-level response in a suit, other than to say the following:

Some people play that even when 4NT is not Blackwood, they respond as though it were Blackwood if they are going to accept the invitation. Once in a blue moon this avoids a slam missing two aces. I consider this a case of mistaken priorities: it is far better to look for a distributional fit in a suit.

I interpret all this as the 5 level should be a worse five card suit (how else to show it?) but there it is for your own examination.

[inquiry]

Since jdonn suggested it would be alright.. here are the three 5NT hands out of a total 17,565 hands played by jdonn with that bbonick (other nicks, if exist, not examined). The alerts alone might be worth price of admission... "Self alert" means no information was provided, just alert key hit.

The results were -14.00 imps, +0.40 imps, and +2.07 imps for an average of minus 3.84 imps

Produced by (program not to be mentioned) on 13-Mar-08
==========================================
IMP-401     jdonn       Dlr: West  
Board 4     S KQT8      Vul: Both
            H AKQJT3    
bridgeno1   D 95        magamel     
S 7632      C T         S           
H 86                    H 94        
D AQ6       jpahk       D KT874     
C 8765      S AJ954     C KQJ943    
            H 752       
            D J32       
            C A2        

12-Apr-06  4:27:45 AM 
First  4:27:45 AM, Last  4:31:30 AM

South      West       North      East       
bridgeno1  jdonn      magamel    jpahk 
           1C!        Dbl        1H*        
Pass       1S!        Pass       3D*        
Pass       3H!        Pass       3S*        
Pass       4C!        Pass       4NT*       
Pass       5C!        Pass       5D*        
Dbl        5H*        Pass       5NT*       
Pass       Pass       Pass       

 1. SelfAlert
 2. 4+ !S, 8+ HCP, not bal
 3. relay, any shape
 4. 5332
 5. relay
 6. 8-11 HCP
 7. still relay
 8. 4 controls, !SA or K
 9. relay
10. no !HA or K, no !DA or K
11. supposed to be to play
12. !CA or K, no !SQ

Opening lead: DA    Result: Down 3
Score: -300         Points: -14.00

 1  South  DA,  5,  7,  2
 2  South  DQ,  9,  4,  3
 3  South  D6, H3, DK, DJ
 4  North  DT, H2, C5, S8
 5  North  D8

IMP-12      jdonn       Dlr: East  
Board 33608 S KQ96      Vul: Both
            H           
betty12345  D AKJT8     sailboat    
S AJT4      C AQJ5      S 83        
H T52                   H AQJ9843   
D 43        cliffdonn   D 76        
C 7432      S 752       C 86        
            H K76       
            D Q952      
            C KT9       

25-Mar-05  6:31:44 AM 
First  6:22:23 AM, Last  6:39:52 AM

East       South      West       North      
betty12345 jdonn      sailboat   cliffdonn
Pass       1C!        3H         Dbl        
Pass       4H         Pass       4NT        
Pass       5NT        Pass       Pass       
Pass       

 1. strong

Opening lead: HT    Result: Made 5
Score: 660          Points: 0.40  

 1  East   HT, S6, H8, HK
 2  North  CK,  2,  5,  8
 3  North  C9,  3,  J,  6
 4  South  CQ, S3, CT, C4
 5  South  CA, S8, S2, C7
 6  South  D8,  7,  9,  3
 7  North  DQ,  4,  T,  6
 8  North  D2, S4, DJ, H3
 9  South  DK, HA, D5, H2
10  South  DA, H4, S5, H5
11  South  SK, H9, S7, SA
12  East   ST,  Q, HQ, H6
13  South  S9, HJ, H7, SJ

IMP-248     jpahk       Dlr: North 
Board 24627 S AJ73      Vul: N-S 
            H Q543      
echognome   D Q62       aaronh      
S KT9       C 72        S 652       
H J876                  H T92       
D T8        jdonn       D 975       
C T865      S Q84       C KQ43      
            H AK        
            D AKJ43     
            C AJ9       

05-Sep-07  5:34:37 AM 
First  5:14:58 AM, Last  5:37:10 AM

East       South      West       North      
echognome  jpahk      aaronh     jdonn      
                                 1C*        
Pass*      1S!        Pass       1NT*       
Pass       2H!        Pass       2S         
Pass       3C*        Pass       3D         
Pass       3H!        Pass       3S         
Pass       3NT*       Pass       4C         
Pass       4H!        Pass       4S         
Pass       4NT!       Pass       5C         
Pass       5D!        Pass       5NT        
Pass       Pass*      Pass       

 1. STRONG be afraid
 2. shaking
 3. SelfAlert
 4. alert
 5. SelfAlert
 6. 4432
 7. min
 8. 2 controls
 9. SelfAlert
10. SelfAlert
11. SelfAlert
12. Axxx xxxx xxx xx with some quacks

Opening lead: D8    Result: Made 6
Score: 690          Points: 2.07  

 1  East   D8,  2,  9,  A
 2  North  S4,  T,  J,  2
 3  South  S3,  6,  8,  K
 4  East   DT
==========================================

[jdonn]

I still like my bidding on all of them lol. Obviously would have chosen 5♠ on the first if I was worried about a misunderstanding (since they doubled, pass = relay, next bid now = to play). Maybe I just wanted to find out how partner would take it, but probably I was just greedy and figured the diamond doubler might lead another suit with AQ of diamonds.

Confused my dad on the second one. What else is new

Third maybe I was a wuss but it's tough to judge (I knew pard was 4432 with ace of spades, no other aces or kings, and 8+), and I probably just decided to play 5NT since apparently I only get to without a misunderstanding on .0057% of the hands I play. I think 6NT is probably the right bid based on what I knew.

[han]

jdonn, on Mar 13 2008, 12:02 AM, said:

I still like my bidding on all of them lol.

[snip]

What else is new

Agree.

[awm]

I think it was the other Josh who believes he gets consistently good results from 5NT (Josh Sher, or joshs on BBO/BBF). He and I have reached 5NT a couple times for good results, and he has commented that he usually gets good results in 5NT on several occasions.

Of course, Josh Sher is a big fan of relay systems (even more so than Josh Donn) and a lot of his 5NT stops are in relay auctions where he discovers his 33 hcp are missing an AK combination in one suit and 5NT is the last making contract. This presumably improves the chances of 5NT being right, since people playing natural systems ending in 5NT usually are having an accident.

[foo]

hrothgar, on Mar 11 2008, 08:49 AM, said:

You hold

IMPS
Red

♠AKQ ♥932 ♦Q54 ♣KQ96   

Partner opens a 15 - 17 HCP 1NT.

Whats your bidding plan?

This is not as easy to evaluate as some might think.

A lot depends on
a= your systemic agreements as to what hands open a 15-17 1N and
b= what tools you have available to you.

With "a gun to my head" and no other information or tools, I'd bid 4N Quantitative because I think it is against the odds to bid a quiet 3N.

Regardless of other stuff, Opener should pass with a min, bid 6N with a Max, and bid 4+ card suits up the line with an intermediate.