[awm]

♠AKQxx
♥x
♦9xx
♣AQTx

1♦ (1) - 1♠
2♣ (2) - 2♥ (3)
3♥ (4)

(1) Precision-style, limited 10-14 hcp
(2) Promises both minors, at least 5-4 but either could be longer
(3) 4th suit forcing to game
(4) Undiscussed

What do you think 3♥ shows? What should it show if discussed? And what's your bid?

[han]

First of all, I would have splintered on my previous turn if available.

But this is a frequently occuring topic and it is good to have an agreement. I think natural (so here 0-4-5-4 or 0-4-4-5) is best because you can't bid that hand otherwise. After 1D-1H-2C-2S I think that Axx in spades is best, but xxx in spades is also reasonable.

Assuming that partner is showing a 3-suiter I bid 3NT of course.

[Gerben42]

Yep, must have shown 1444 / 0445 / 0454 now. I will bid 3♠, if partner bids 3NT I will believe his ♥ are good for 3NT and pass, if something else we will play ♣.

[whereagles]

I have 3♥ defined as a stop ask. Without this agreement I would take it as natural and bid 3NT now.

[gwnn]

Nuno, from the little I know of 4sf auctions, usually the 4sf bidder is the captain of the auction (unless he deliberately renounces that posture i.e. 1h-1s-2c-2d;2h-4♠). More to the point, asking over an asking bid doesn't sound too well.

[pclayton]

Whatever pard has, we know he's short in spades. I doubt 5♣ will be better than 3N.

[cherdano]

Han won't be surprised that I try for slam (4♣).

[han]

Jlall, on Mar 11 2008, 02:03 AM, said:

Surprised this is debatable, would have thought everyone plays 3H as showing 4 hearts. It is just too difficult to get to 4-4 heart fits otherwise (or if you think you get to 4-4 heart fits by bidding 2H-2N-3H-4H then it is too hard to get to 5-3 heart fits, and it is tough to guage whether to play 4S or not sometimes if 2N can be bid on a void).

Surprised han said 3N of course if partner has shown a 3 suiter, I would try 4C at imps since slam is so possible.

Also surprised Han leaves 1444 out as a possible shape. I know Han rebids 1N with that, but I suspect if he is out of range for a 1N rebid he would not open 1N with a small singleton and would be forced to rebid 2C.

I'm full of surprises! Do note that Adam specifically said that 2C shows at least 9 cards in the minors. That also makes our hand worse for slam.

[ccw]

Partner is showing natural hearts and nothing he must protect in NT. In my agreements he has also denied as many 3S (independent of having shown a 3 suiter).

I bid 4C to set trump and indicate that slam is still on the table from my point of view.

Collins

[Apollo81]

han, on Mar 11 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

Adam specifically said that 2C shows at least 9 cards in the minors.

Yeah but that doesn't mean the hand can't be 1444 with the right honor placement =)

[Apollo81]

It shows hearts, I've never heard of it showing anything else. 6♣ looks like a good contract if partner has the right cards, so I'll bid 4♣.

[whereagles]

gwnn, on Mar 11 2008, 05:33 PM, said:

Nuno, from the little I know of 4sf auctions, usually the 4sf bidder is the captain of the auction (unless he deliberately renounces that posture i.e. 1h-1s-2c-2d;2h-4♠). More to the point, asking over an asking bid doesn't sound too well.

Well.. who's capitain isn't very clear in general, though in precision, it definitely is responder.

In this case, 3♥ isn't exactly asking. It more like "Pard, I haven't got 3-car spade support nor extra shape. I can't bid NT because I lack a heart stop. How's that for you?" e.g. something like

x
xxx
AKJx
KJxxx

(swap minors if your precision variant opens this 2♣)

[han]

Apollo81, on Mar 11 2008, 01:18 PM, said:

han, on Mar 11 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

Adam specifically said that 2C shows at least 9 cards in the minors.

Yeah but that doesn't mean the hand can't be 1444 with the right honor placement =)

If so I misunderstood his comment.