[the hog]

Imps. nv vs vul

Scoring: Imps

---

The bidding
1C (1H) 1S (3H)
?

1S may be a 4 card suit

[Rado]

Hi Ron,

Since partner might have originally passed with subminimum hand (5-6 points and bad 4 cards in ♠ after 1♥ overcall or he might have bid DBL with better hand but bad 4 card ♠ I think our hand worths 4♥ cue agreeing ♠. Game will be on with most of the hands while some ordinary:
♠AQxxx
♥xxx
♦xxx
♣Kx
will produce nice slam

If we change the bidding to
1♣ - PASS - 1♠ - 3♥
then the story changes to DBL in my view:)
(even optimistic jump to 4♠ has some merit)

Regards
Rado

[bearmum]

Guess the bidding depends on WHAT system u play -- AND if you realise that the 1C bidder IS the opener AND that the opener is nv V vul( or do I have THAT wrong ??)


MY Reg P and I play Precision where we WOULD open 1C (16+)-on the hand shown - BUT over a 1H intervention would bid 1S ONLY with 5-8 AND at least a 5C ♠ suit - so that would make all other bids unreliable in the context of your question
BUT in THIS case ( P showing 5-8 AND 5S I would double showing 3 card support for S - and asking P to Pass or correct KNOWING I have 16+ points AND 3♠ )

[inquiry]

The_Hog, on Mar 6 2004, 12:37 AM, said:

Dealer: South Vul: NS Scoring: Imps

♠ Kxx ♥ x ♦ AKxx ♣ AQJxx

The bidding
1C (1H)  1S  (3H)
?
1S may be a 4 card suit

I had the pleasure of kibitizing this hand when it was played. So, my views may be influenced by knowing what works and doesn't on this hand.

But,

• 3♠ is a terrific underbid
  
• 4♠ may get in the wrong stain, clubs or dimaond may be better
  
• 4♦ is alright, if you think your partner can handle this as a high level reverse with modest support and real ♦'s
  
• But double is perfect, this is for "takeout" and thus shows ♦s and presumably tolerance for ♠s as well
  
• 4♥ would show ♠ support and slam try. This is the aggressive action, as it might suggest better ♠'s.

So i would double here, with 4♥ as my second choice. AFter 4♥ you can never get out of ♠s and into another suit if it is right.

Ben

[WGF_Flame]

A perfect hand for Double.

[Free]

4♠, get it on...

[Trpltrbl]

X, support.

Mike

[luke warm]

double if it's support else 4♥

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

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Hi Ron!

Spoiler

------

Rebids of the opener in competition are most difficulte matter in my opinion. There are several reasons:

• 1. Rebids are relative to system - content of opening. This make impossible making of standard conventions about rebids suitable for any system, gaining expirience about them and their progress.
  
• 2. Rebids are relative to partner's response. Need not only to show own type/zone of hand, but also attitude to his bid. The lack of bidding space make same job very hard for science solution.
  
• 3. Rebids are relative to level. At 1 level still enough bids are available and only clear agreements are needed. At 2 level 2NT is available as GB/scrambling/support... At 3 level there is no free bid, because 3NT can still be wining contract. At 4 level 4NT can be artifical and often penalty dbl is also solution. So hardest situation is 3 level of competition.
  
• 4. Rebids are relative to your style of play - take out doubles, support doubles, optional/penalty doubles....

Spoiler

------

I like general reasonable solutions, because in my opinion they lead to better results than 500 pages system, due to human nature and faster gaining of partnership experience. To analyse same situation with aim of generalization agreements we need worse situation at 3 level - 3♠ from opps and I will change bidding to:

1♣ - (1♠) - dbl* - (3♠), *=sure 4+♥ and at least 1/1 strength
?

Spoiler

------

Like in any other sequence we need to sacrifice at least one bid to gain advantage for all other bids. Because the only available bid below 3NT is dbl, need to sacrifice it and use it like 2NT at 2 level - multi meaning bid (meta structure, hehe) - enough strength for level, deny stopper for 3NT or 3 cards support in ♥. 3NT must be natural. Bids above 3NT and below 4 of p major will show ♥ support and must be used to determine strength of 4 cards raise, while for 3 cards is not so important, because for such bid you already need more strength. In example: 4CL: 3 cards in ♥; 4♦: 4 cards in ♥, limit raise; 4♥: 4 cards in ♥, competitive raise. Bids above 4 major must be used for minor hands with shortage in opps suit, unsuitable for dbl. For example: 4♠: 6+♣-4♦; 4NT: 6+C-5+DI; 5♣: 1 suiter.

Spoiler

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Misho

[the hog]

Makes sense Misho.

Played this against Boain and Misho. 6D makes except on a S lead, 5 of a minor is excellent, and 4S hopeless - S break 5-1

[dogsbreath]

Agree (mostly) with Misho. following leb principles it is unlikely to be useful to play X as penalty when they have freely bid & supported a suit. With regular p, our x here would say ..S support but not 4-cards AND 'constructive' in nature. As misho said.. cant be right to give up 3NT bid as 'to play' and S raises possibly unwise. May also make p's action easier if opps compete further.
Rgds Dogsbreath

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Mar 6 2004, 05:37 AM, said:

Imps. nv vs vul

Scoring: Imps

---

The bidding
1C (1H) 1S (3H)
?

1S may be a 4 card suit

I think 1s in this sequence should promise 5+ spade. Otherwise, why not dbl first? So I will bid 4h now.

If you say you dont play it that way, then I recommend you to play it that way. This is not my idea, but Mike Lawrence's idea.


fly

[flytoox]

Trpltrbl, on Mar 7 2004, 05:37 PM, said:

X, support.

Mike

I am not sure if spt dbl is played at three level, though it depends on partnership agreement. I prefer not to use it at three level.

FLy

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Mar 8 2004, 01:25 PM, said:

Trpltrbl, on Mar 7 2004, 05:37 PM, said:

X, support.

Mike 

I am not sure if spt dbl is played at three level, though it depends on partnership agreement. I prefer not to use it at three level.

FLy

I have to agree, support doubles at the three level are very, highly unusual treatment. Support doubles are based upon the law of total tricks. You double at a low level to show three, so your partner knows how hight to compete with 4, 5, 6 card suits (and raise with 4). Your partner lookng at 3♠ and very modest values over a support double will be wondering where to go...how to get back to 1♠ when bidding is at 3♥?

Just plain dbl with this hand is fine, and if partner does bid 4♦, you can bid 4♠ or 4♥... 4♠ will have 3 card support and slam interest written all over it, but non-forcing.. and 4♥ will show the stregnth of the hand, but your ♠ support will never have been shown.

[luis]

Dbl seems to be the right bid

[the hog]

"I think 1s in this sequence should promise 5+ spade. Otherwise, why not dbl first? So I will bid 4h now.

If you say you dont play it that way, then I recommend you to play it that way. This is not my idea, but Mike Lawrence's idea."

Disagree strongly with this. x shows the minors for me. Why should it show 5S when I can bid them naturally with 4?

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Mar 8 2004, 09:42 PM, said:

"I think 1s in this sequence should promise 5+ spade. Otherwise, why not dbl first? So I will bid 4h now.

If you say you dont play it that way, then I recommend you to play it that way. This is not my idea, but Mike Lawrence's idea."

Disagree strongly with this. x shows the minors for me. Why should it show 5S when I can bid them naturally with 4?

well, in this way you can tell pd if you bid 4card spade or 5 card spade and then you wont have the problem encountered here.

If you agree that priority in bridge is given to majors, then you should use this treatment. Disguishing between 4card and 5card major is far more important than showig your minor in my opinion.

If you still think your method is superior, then let's agree to disagree.

Fly

[Trpltrbl]

inquiry, on Mar 8 2004, 01:31 PM, said:

flytoox, on Mar 8 2004, 01:25 PM, said:

Trpltrbl, on Mar 7 2004, 05:37 PM, said:

X, support.

Mike 

I am not sure if spt dbl is played at three level, though it depends on partnership agreement. I prefer not to use it at three level.

FLy

I have to agree, support doubles at the three level are very, highly unusual treatment. Support doubles are based upon the law of total tricks. You double at a low level to show three, so your partner knows how hight to compete with 4, 5, 6 card suits (and raise with 4). Your partner lookng at 3♠ and very modest values over a support double will be wondering where to go...how to get back to 1♠ when bidding is at 3♥?

Just plain dbl with this hand is fine, and if partner does bid 4♦, you can bid 4♠ or 4♥... 4♠ will have 3 card support and slam interest written all over it, but non-forcing.. and 4♥ will show the stregnth of the hand, but your ♠ support will never have been shown.

I play support X up to 3♥. Mostly because of this reason. And you should know by now I am not like most people

Mike