BBO Discussion Forums: Semi-preemptive hand but lacking shape - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Semi-preemptive hand but lacking shape Your bid?

Poll: Pass, overcall or preempt? (34 member(s) have cast votes)

Pass, overcall or preempt?

  1. Pass (3 votes [8.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.82%

  2. 2D (17 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  3. 3D (14 votes [41.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.18%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#21 Guest_Jlall_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 2008-March-03, 16:06

awm, on Mar 3 2008, 03:22 PM, said:

There are definite advantages to a 2 bid, as Justin has pointed out. But there are also problems, for example partner may try to take a sacrifice in 5 that doesn't work out well because our hand is so flat, or partner may try to penalize a game bid by opponents that doesn't work out well because our hand has so little defense. These possibilities seem more likely to me than partner having enough for 3NT but being unable to bid, if potentially a bit less costly.

I would bet highly on the number of successful saves partner taking being higher than the number of bad saves partner takes after a 2D bid. I mean we don't have very much defense at all so I can't see partner ever taking a phantom save, maybe he takes a save that goes down 1 too many but thats not a huge disaster. I feel like I have enough trick taking potential that we won't go for 1100 if partner saves (or that this would be a freak occurance). Perhaps this depends on who your partner is/what they expect from a 2D bid.

Add to this the advantages you gain when you are able to take up room from their auction/put them to a test at the 5 level ie 1S 2D 3D 5D ?, I am very happy overall when partner jumps to some number of diamonds and consider that a huge plus of overcalling (enabling partner to do that)

As far as partner Xing them, I can see this happening on an auction like 1S 2D 4S(made heavy) or something where he's forced into showing cards, but I think it is unlikely partner will double them unsuccessfully if he was able to get a bid in first and the opps still bid game (like 1S 2D 3D 3H 4S p p). Usually partner can figure out they are not going to go down 2. Again maybe this depends on who partner is. This is a real downside but I don't think it happens very often (especially since people don't jump to 4M very much with decent hands; see a recent thread where people disliked doing so).
0

#22 User is offline   655321 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,502
  • Joined: 2007-December-22

Posted 2008-March-03, 16:44

Agree with 2 WTP.

If we were not vulnerable, 2 and 3 would both be reasonable.
Pass is not reasonable at any vulnerability.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
0

#23 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2008-March-03, 18:34

I think 2D is normal and 3D a misdescription, but my objection to 3D is that it has too much outside diamonds. I don't think there's anything wrong with the playing strength.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#24 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,917
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2008-March-03, 18:50

I echo everything Justin wrote on this, altho I do qualify that by saying that this is, for me, a borderline (but clear) 2 overcall.

I like the quality of the diamond suit in terms of safety at this level and in terms of an opening lead if LHO is about to bid hearts.

I agree with Justin that partner will probably be doing the right thing is he saves after I bid 2. I add that I suspect that he is far more likely to be doing the WRONG thing if he saves after I overcall 3. So I dislike 3 for two reasons: one is that it is far easier to double and defend 3 when it is right to do so and the other is that it may mislead partner with respect to my offence to defence ratio.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#25 User is offline   Gerben42 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,577
  • Joined: 2005-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erlangen, Germany
  • Interests:Astronomy, Mathematics
    Nuclear power

Posted 2008-March-04, 02:03

The full story:

1 2 3 4
4 Pass Pass Dbl
Pass Pass Pass

-790

, partner having

xx
AKxxxx
x
Axxx

B)
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
My Bridge Systems Page

BC Kultcamp Rieneck
0

#26 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2008-March-04, 02:37

What was the full hand?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#27 User is offline   Gerben42 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,577
  • Joined: 2005-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erlangen, Germany
  • Interests:Astronomy, Mathematics
    Nuclear power

Posted 2008-March-04, 03:00

Scoring: IMP


German 2nd league, playing against the 1st-place team.

At the other table our team opened 1, PASS, 3 - end.

+170 and -790 lost 12 IMPs.

Maybe should've JUST beaten it but wasn't that easy.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
My Bridge Systems Page

BC Kultcamp Rieneck
0

#28 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2008-March-04, 03:30

Gerben42, on Mar 4 2008, 10:00 AM, said:

At the other table our team opened 1, PASS, 3 - end.

+170 and -790 lost 12 IMPs.

Maybe should've JUST beaten it but wasn't that easy.

I know it's easier when you can see all four hands, but it looks straightforward to defeat 4S, as long as no one panics. Declarer can't make more than seven trump tricks, a heart and a diamond. (East's hearts were AK9xxx, according to Gerben's other thread, and West's diamonds were KQJ97x.)

It seems unreasonable to blame the bidding for this result - talking the opponents into a phantom sacrifice should have gained you 8 IMPs.

Edit: I gather from the other thread that North's clubs were 108xx, so a little care is needed by the defence. West has to play force dummy with a diamond at some point, to stop declarer setting up both a club and a heart.

Further edit: Sorry about the "stream of consciousness" style analysis, but West may also have to take care over the timing of this force. Suppose it goes diamond lead, two rounds of trumps, heart to the queen and king, club to the jack. It's not sufficient to force dummy now, as West will be endplayed by the next round of clubs (after HA has been ruffed out).
The solution is to cash K before forcing dummy. This probably goes a bit beyond "straightforward", but you I think one should get this right - it is necessary when declarer has this shape, and costs nothing when he is 5=1=4=3.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2008-March-04, 04:08

... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#29 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,772
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2008-March-04, 14:18

Never 3 - I almost never bid 3minor vulnerable with a flat hand.

And I am more conservative in this regard after RHO opens than I am for a 1st seat pre-empt.

And more conservative vulnerable.

Even 2 could be ugly.

For me this is close to the boundary between 2 and pass.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#30 User is offline   jdonn 

  • - - T98765432 AQT8
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,085
  • Joined: 2005-June-23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas, NV

Posted 2008-March-04, 14:35

I don't feel like analyzing what "should" have happened to 4. But call me crazy, with these two hands I sure want the opponents to be doubled if they bid to 4 on really any auction.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users