[helene_t]

1♣-1♥
1♠-2♦*
2♥-3♠
4♥-4♠
pass

Opener tanked before 4♥ and before pass. Not sure whether he was wondering if 3♠ and 4♠ were natural bids, or if he was considering bidding more.

I (responder) had a nice 4522 with 14 points. Maybe 4♠ over 1♠ would have been descriptive, but then imagine a slightly stronger hand for the sake of the argument. Anyway, 4♠ over 1♠ does not leave room for cuebidding.

I was kinda chocked by p's comment that FSF is not used that way in Acol. That FSF is always based on a flexible hand, and with a strong hand with a clear direction just bids at the appropriate level. (5♠ with 6 LTC anyone?).

Comments anyone?

PS: since 1♠ promises 5+ clubs we are not going to play XYZ here.
PPS: I think my 3♠ bid was wrong. How many spades must I bid after FSF, assuming 2♥ by opener has w wide range and that you agree with using FSF in the first place?

[whereagles]

In Acol, jump are limit raises, so the only way to establish a force below game is via FSF. You bid it fine. I think pard is resulting.

[NickToll]

whereagles, on Feb 16 2008, 12:15 PM, said:

You bid it fine.

Agree. IMHO jumping to 4♠ at the second round is acceptable with all your strength in the majors and two vacant doubletons in the minors, which is probably not your case since you were interested in cuebidding.

[FrancesHinden]

You nearly bid it fine.

If you are really confident with your partner, then you can bid 2S over 2H which, because you went via 4SF first, is forcing.

All invitational hands with a known fit or a known direction jump to the level of the invitation. So over the 1S bid, all of 2NT, 3C, 3H and 3S are natural non-forcing.

Fourth suit is used on hands too strong to set the final contract, and on invitational+ hands unsure of strain. Your sequence showed a hand with a spade fit too strong to bid 2S, 3S or 4S on the previous round.

[csdenmark]

helene_t, on Feb 16 2008, 06:52 PM, said:

1♣-1♥
1♠-2♦*
2♥-3♠
4♥-4♠
pass

Opener tanked before 4♥ and before pass. Not sure whether he was wondering if 3♠ and 4♠ were natural bids, or if he was considering bidding more.

I (responder) had a nice 4522 with 14 points. Maybe 4♠ over 1♠ would have been descriptive, but then imagine a slightly stronger hand for the sake of the argument. Anyway, 4♠ over 1♠ does not leave room for cuebidding.

I was kinda chocked by p's comment that FSF is not used that way in Acol. That FSF is always based on a flexible hand, and with a strong hand with a clear direction just bids at the appropriate level. (5♠ with 6 LTC anyone?).

Comments anyone?

PS: since 1♠ promises 5+ clubs we are not going to play XYZ here.
PPS: I think my 3♠ bid was wrong. How many spades must I bid after FSF, assuming 2♥ by opener has w wide range and that you agree with using FSF in the first place?

Helene I took a brief look into Terence Reese - Acol today. He has a discussion about FSF from page 156.

Looks like you and your partner are talking on different wavelength. As I understood FSF in 1-2 level is forcing one round and higher forcing until a depressing message arrives.

Looks rubbish to me. If you dont have the book yourself I have it uploaded to bridgefiles.

[helene_t]

Tx, sounds as if it works the same way as in SA and such.

Btw I prefer to play FSF as GF, I know this is somewhat un-Acolish but I find it much easier.

Btw tx Claus, I think we have the book you refer to at the club library, I'll have a look, and discuss with some people at the club how they play it.

[Cascade]

I play Fourth Suit Forcing as Game Forcing.

I think there are too many problems if it is forcing for one round only. Or maybe rather that it is much simpler if it is forcing to game.

Typically fourth suit forcing is either a hand with no clear direction with game values or a hand with clear direction (or possibly still no clear direction) and slam invitational or better values.

[Wackojack]

I have some difficulty with a 4sf bid on your hand because to me it is murky. Suppose you had something like AJx, AKxx, xxx, Jxx. Now you would 4sf with 2♦ and when partner bids 2♥ showing 3, you would bid 2♠. I am not sure what 3♠ would mean. With 14 points and 4522, a jump to 4♠ looks much clearer to me.

What is really interesting is if you had 14 points and 4513 or 4531. With the first a bid of 4♦ would show this distribution. However, would a bid of 4♣ show the 4531 distribution? Suppose you had a game forcing hand with 4 card club support. Then you would go through 4sf of 2♦ and then bid 4♣. A matter for agreement?

[Fluffy]

One of the first lesssons I learned is that 4SF+raise is GF and looking for slam.

[the hog]

Helene, I would have bid 4S with your hand and not futzed around with 4th sf. Your hand and its shape are not that good that you want to automatically start cue bidding, so what was the point? Your 4ths suit bid and opener's failure to bid NT pinpointed a D weakness. This gives the opps too much information.
Cutesy bidding like this is often practised by posters on this forum. Look at the way pairs like the Hacketts blast to game. It makes defence far more difficult.
(Yes I know the Hacketts don't play Acol!)

[P_Marlowe]

#1 I prefer FSF Acol style, but this may just, because
I learned it that way, and was not forced to play
it as GF
For whats it worth, in my opionion it does not really
matter, most auctions develop similar
#2 using FSF is, ok, you may discover a secondary fit,
but after 2H, which shows 3 cards and min. values,
I would just bid 4S
This way you show partner, that you do have mild
slam interest, ... but you dont have more

With kind regards
Marlowe