[jillybean]

One of my occasional, online partners seems to have an aversion to bidding 1nt. I like a 1nt rebid on both these hands, it makes finding 5-3 major fit simple and 1nt is often a good place to stop.
IMO hand 1 is a clear 1nt bid, hand 2 closer to 2♥ than 2♦.

KQ
Qx
ATxx
Qxxxx

1♣:1♥
2♣


Qxx
KQx
AKxxx
Xx

1♦:1♥
2♦


Would anyone else bid 2minor here, and why?

[inquiry]

i would bid 1NT on the first one.
I would raise to 2♥ on the second one.

[rogerclee]

1N is clear on one. 2♥ is clear to me on number two, but 1NT is a distant second choice for me. 2D on the second hand is a really good way to play a 5-1 fit.

[matmat]

jillybean2, on Feb 11 2008, 08:16 PM, said:

One of my occasional, online partners seems to have an aversion to bidding 1nt. I like a 1nt rebid on both these hands, it makes finding 5-3 major fit simple and 1nt is often a good place to stop.
IMO hand 1 is a clear 1nt bid, hand 2 closer to 2♥ than 2♦.

KQ
Qx
ATxx
Qxxxx

1♣:1♥
2♣


Qxx
KQx
AKxxx
Xx

1♦:1♥
2♦


Would anyone else bid 2minor here, and why?

1nt on the first
2h on the second.

[Cascade]

I with the near concensus and bid 1NT on the first hand and 2♥ on the second.

The first hand is not close. I would also bid 1NT if I had only one heart and a third spade rather than rebidding this incipid club suit - the alternative would be a 1♦ opening intending to rebid 2♣ which I don't like but tolerate on occasion (at least it shows partner is thinking about the rebid problems) on 4=5 hands.

On the second hand I am a big fan of raising with the trumps. It makes the bidding so much simpler sometimes when partner has five trumps and only a little more complex when she has only four. If you have some discipline and make the three-card only on hands with ruffing values very often the Moysian will be reasonable even if there happens to be a better contract.

[han]

Never 2m on such a hand. Never.

[the hog]

Consensus so far!

[Gerben42]

I will not ever bid 2m on these hands, so far I agree. I'm sceptical about raising to 2♥ on a hand not containing a singleton. OTOH I also don't bid 1NT on a singleton ♥ in this position, so that partner can rebid ♥ with 5.

[vuroth]

What is it about hand 2 that leads us to preferring a moysian over a NT bid? Is it the possibility that partner will have 5♥? The fact that we might bid 1NT with a singleton ♥? The short clubs which might give a ruff? The concentration of values in ♥?

I don't object to the bid, but I'm a bit surprised it's a consensus. I'd like to better understand the criteria in order to sharpen my own decision making.

V

[jtfanclub]

vuroth, on Feb 12 2008, 10:03 AM, said:

What is it about hand 2 that leads us to preferring a moysian over a NT bid? Is it the possibility that partner will have 5♥? The fact that we might bid 1NT with a singleton ♥? The short clubs which might give a ruff? The concentration of values in ♥?

I don't object to the bid, but I'm a bit surprised it's a consensus. I'd like to better understand the criteria in order to sharpen my own decision making.

V

Well, I'm not speaking for anybody else here, but...

I expect that when 2♥ gets passed out, that it will do one trick better than 1NT. I have excellent hearts which means that the opponents are unlikely to take control of the hand, and I have a small doubleton and a trick that should get us one more trump.

In addition, I think this hand is simply too strong for 1NT.

Qxx
KQx
AKxxx
Xx

AKxx
JTxxx
xx
xx

This can be 4♥ making exactly, or it can be 1NT making exactly. Partner should not make a move with 5 hearts and 7-9 hcp after a 1NT bid, but will make a move with the same hand over 2♥. Your hand is worth about 16 points in support of hearts, not 12-14. Replace the queen of spades with the deuce, and now it's tempting to bid 1NT just to slow the bidding down.

[brianshark]

I rebid 1N with both hands, slightly bemused at the amount of 3-card raises I've seen on these forums in the past few months.

At least I agree that 2m should never be considered.

[han]

As Justin has pointed out several times lately, the bridge world (at least in North America) has gone very far in raising with 3-card support, perhaps way too far.

However, if you are ever going to raise with 3-card support and no shortness, then you should definitely do so with this hand. The advantages are:

1) This is a very good hand. Partner is more likely to act over 2H than over 1NT.

2) You have strong hearts which makes it less likely that you are already in a silly contract.

3) You have a small doubleton in clubs. If 3NT is the best contract then it is likely best played from partner's side.

Move one of the heart honors to clubs and 2H becomes much less appealing.

There are some who will never raise with this shape, see Gerben's reply. As usual having good agreements with partner is more important than exactly what style you play. I do think that Gerben's style is inferior but hey, we all have our preferences.

[skjaeran]

1. 1NT
2. 2♥

Pretty clear IMO.

[jillybean]

Maybe it is a geographical thing, my partner is adamant after opening 1♣ 1nt means 4333 5332.

I like 2♥ on hand2 but I am careful who I use it with.

[vuroth]

jillybean2, on Feb 12 2008, 01:24 PM, said:

Maybe it is a geographical thing, my partner is adamant after opening 1♣ 1nt means 4333 5332.

That is just bizarre. Why have special rules for balanced hands at different levels of strength? Why not just handle every 12-14 balanced the same way, and every 15-17 balanced the same way, etc?

[han]

jillybean2, on Feb 12 2008, 01:24 PM, said:

Maybe it is a geographical thing, my partner is adamant after opening 1♣ 1nt means 4333 5332.

I like 2♥ on hand2 but I am careful who I use it with.

This is not a geographical thing.

Your approach to the second hand is very sensible.

[Cascade]

jillybean2, on Feb 13 2008, 07:24 AM, said:

Maybe it is a geographical thing, my partner is adamant after opening 1♣ 1nt means 4333 5332.

I doubt that it is geographic.

I think it is the way most players were taught and probably are still taught that 5332, 4432 and 4333 are the only balanced distributions.

Personally I think NT openings and rebids should be more flexible than this, much more flexible.

It just occurred to me that I am not sure from your post whether you are referring to a 1NT response or a 1NT rebid. I assumed a 1NT rebid.

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on Feb 12 2008, 01:24 PM, said:

Maybe it is a geographical thing, my partner is adamant after opening 1♣ 1nt means 4333 5332.

Then you have to open 4-5 in the minors 12-14 hcp 1 diamond. Nothing wrong with doing that, especially if you open 4-4-3-2 12-14 one club.

[jillybean]

Cascade, on Feb 12 2008, 03:06 PM, said:

It just occurred to me that I am not sure from your post whether you are referring to a 1NT response or a 1NT rebid. I assumed a 1NT rebid.

1nt openers rebid